Up Front: Respectably-Dressed Sensible Demure Lady Stroll
457 Responses
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BenWilson, in reply to
AND, it appears to mean "patronising", and we already have a word for that, it's "patronising".
Which is, interestingly, a totally gendered word. There's no word for womansplaining that I'm aware of, although I'm happy to be enlightened. I guess "nagging" is the closest we've got, a telling pointer about how gendered power is.
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giovanni tiso, in reply to
Paul Henry’s an easy target. But if you’re going to propose that he’s “the acceptable face of rape culture”, then you have to say the same thing, and more, about John Key sitting next to Tony bloody Veitch and scoring women out of 10.
Well, then let's do that. I don't know. Gheddafi (warning: immensely triggering link) is rumoured to be using mass rape as a weapon. He's also the guy who taught the prime minister of my country how to organise a bunga bunga party. Berlusconi's girls are sourced by two TV personalities from a circuit of festivals and beauty contests where young women go to be "discovered" in the hope of landing a television job. I wouldn't want to draw a line that leads directly to Key and Henry and Veitch, but policing the language of our public personalities is not a meaningless exercise.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
I wouldn’t want to draw a line that leads directly to Key and Henry and Veitch, but policing the language of our public personalities is not a meaningless exercise.
Not at all.
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An interesting analysis of the extent to which some men think that all women are sexually available.
Dominique Strauss-Kahn and the myth of consent
In the Colorado case, one of the attorneys for the raped women asked the football players a most telling question: “How many female students here at CU would you consider to be ‘football groupies’? One running back said, “About half.” Another player, a wide receiver, answered “a majority.”
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Below might feel like me being patronising, if so I apologise, it’s just me trying to sort ideas out and “thinking out loud”. Part of it is just the way I’ve been trained to think (not implying I think "better" but it's a particular bias in style of thought), part of it is probably ignorance of most rape research. And sorry long post is long.
I have issues with the idea of a “rape culture”. To me it suggests that we know of a culture where rape doesn’t exist, as far as I know that isn’t true and has never been true.
We can imagine different cultures and propose that such an imaginary culture might eliminate rape – but I find myself balking at most of those imaginations because I keep thinking “but what if that isn’t the real connection”.
I think that needs explaining because I’m not sure I’m making sense. So one of the popular ideas is that if we had a culture that didn’t view women as property then we wouldn’t have rape … usually followed up by long dissertations to support this idea. Which is all fine as an hypothesis but where is the experimental proof? What if rape isn’t anything to do with a view of women as property?
What I keep coming back to is that on the bell curve that is human behaviour there is a portion of humanity (yes they are real humans) who for some reason feel comfortable doing violence to other humans, including rape. It’s more complicated because there are probably different bell curves for different kinds of violence, perhaps especially so for rape. And no I’m not suggesting rape is normal human behaviour or genetically programmed or excusing it on the basis of they can’t help it.
It isn’t about a culture causing them to rape. It is about a culture that has failed to figure out how to stop them raping. That’s why I dislike the “rape culture” thing, it feels like explaining rape as part of the culture. Instead it’s part of the behaviour of a portion of humanity. When I think of it like that it seems to me the problem becomes one of figuring out how to apply (cultural) pressure on that group that might naturally be more inclined to rape in order to make them stop before they rape.
In very simple terms Megan’s observation of signs in Samoa that say “rape is wrong” feels like the right approach to me. It directly focusses on those people who may not naturally “get it”. It feels to me as that kind of approach is better than the indirect approaches which may or may not actually have a connection to why people rape.
That approach also focusses on the rapist not the victim.
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And from that very same blog, the point that there's no such thing as "good" girls and "bad" girls.
If we are dedicated to promoting the collective power of girls and women, we cannot police their sexuality in an attempt to make girls “good.” For girls like Hope Witsell–whose photos were released to classmates without her consent–we need to offer support and encouragement rather than exhorting her to be a good girl. Ultimately, we would be wise to heed Tanenbaum’s words, not Witherspoon’s, because a world without slut-shaming is one that’s “good” for everyone.
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giovanni tiso, in reply to
It isn't about a culture causing them to rape. It is about a culture that has failed to figure out how to stop them raping. That's why I dislike the "rape culture" thing, it feels like explaining rape as part of the culture. Instead it's part of the behaviour of a portion of humanity.
And that behaviour is what, entirely genetic and not at all the product of culture? That seems far fetched to me.
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Megan Wegan, in reply to
It isn’t about a culture causing them to rape. It is about a culture that has failed to figure out how to stop them raping. That’s why I dislike the “rape culture” thing, it feels like explaining rape as part of the culture.
Not so much the culture causing them to rape, but as Emma said, enabling them and excusing them from doing it.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
An interesting analysis of the extent to which some men think that all women are sexually available.
I remember the Colorado case unfolding. The political thicket around it was astonishing. Check this weird "it was the government's fault" analysis on the Fox News site, by a member of this Randian feminist group.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
And that behaviour is what, entirely genetic and not at all the product of culture?
If it was a product of culture it would vary more between different cultures and I don't think it varies much at all. I think there is evidence that it is possible to promote it culturally (eg college football teams) but that is different from trying to eliminate it.
I guess I am saying that there is a genetic component to this that can't be ignored. But having said that I need to emphasise that a genetic propensity towards violence does not mean an individual has to be violent.
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Jackie Clark, in reply to
Bart, there's a supposition on your part that all rape is violent - do you mean violent as in the wider understanding of the word? Or do you mean in a more micro way? I've been in situations that were inherently violent, but not physically so. And the incident I related - although I use the term "rape" to describe what happened to me extremely tentatively - wasn't even inherently violent. It was someone making an executive decision on my behalf that I wanted to have sex with him, even when I didn't. I had consented to the point of being in my bed with him, but that's where my consent ended. So I don't know that rape culture means that we encourage, or condone violence. I'm still really sorting out what it does mean, for me. All I know is that this discussion, very early on, triggered in me extreme feelings of rage, at myself and at people who tried to do violence to me. And yes, to the man who thought it was okay to use my body for his own needs. Those feelings caught me by surprise, and only lasted very briefly. Anything that makes us confront our own behaviour, and the behaviour of others, can only be a good thing, as far as I am concerned. I would also like to thank everyone for their candour. As we say in my business, sharing is caring.
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In very simple terms Megan’s observation of signs in Samoa that say “rape is wrong” feels like the right approach to me.
See, I think that's too simple an approach for New Zealand culture. People know rape is wrong, because that's the thing that happens to women in dark alleys and is done by strangers with knives or guns. No one I know would ever rape anyone.
Sex without consent, however, well that's a whole different thing...
Except that it's not.
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Lilith __, in reply to
If it was a product of culture it would vary more between different cultures and I don’t think it varies much at all
Bart, this opens a whole biological-determinist can of worms that I think is a distraction from the issue of rape prevention. I don't think using the term "rape culture" - meaning a culture than condones rape - says anything about rape being purely culturally determined. With any behaviour, we can argue whether it's purely learned or purely instinctive or somehere in between, but I don't know the debate can ever be resolved, or if it's a helpful argument to have. Even if that's not the intention, that debate makes rape apologists feel justified.
Sorry, I'd like to say more but I have to go out, I'm finding this thread very valuable, thanks everyone for sharing.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
there’s a supposition on your part that all rape is violent
Um yeah I think so. Even if you imagine the most gentle act of sex, if it is without consent it is a violation and a form of violence, isn't that true?
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
this opens a whole biological-determinist can of worms that I think is a distraction from the issue of rape prevention
I agree and that's not the way I want the discussion to go either. More a case of rape being about the rapist and approaches that deal with that, be they cultural or specifically personal.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
I think that’s too simple an approach for New Zealand culture. People know rape is wrong
Yah know I'm not so sure. If what you are saying is we need to be clearer about what rape is then OK. But I actually think there are people who don't really think rape is wrong in the same way that there are people who think drunk driving is not wrong.
Like is said I'm thinking a bit out loud because I am also finding this discussion helpful and even if my thoughts are wrong then being told so is helping me at least :).
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
somehere in between
It's always somewhere in between.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
I have issues with the idea of a “rape culture”. To me it suggests that we know of a culture where rape doesn’t exist, as far as I know that isn’t true and has never been true.
I fully get the concept and why it really matters, but I'm sometimes uncomfortable with the phrase on a usage level. It can become a trump to play on stuff or people you don't like.
In that Stroppery thread we ended up with Vicki Anderson's affectionate story about Anika Moa and her wife as a manifestation of "rape culture". It is important to note that Anika expected the story to be rather more about her new album and subsequently made her feelings known to Anderson, but "rape culture"? No. It trivialised the term.
I'm starting to feel a bit uneasy about "triggering". Emma explained very well the purpose and meaning of the word, but Gio wrote this earlier:
Well, then let’s do that. I don’t know. Gheddafi (warning: immensely triggering link) is rumoured to be using mass rape as a weapon.
What information was in the word "triggering" that wasn't already in the words "using mass rape as a weapon"? The word sometimes seems to have a role beyond its ostensible one.
(I'm not having a go at you, Gio. You should be applauding my baby steps in critical thinking :-).)
At the extreme, you get something like the infamous Maia post discussed here a while back, in which she basically asserted control over key words in the feminist vocabulary and used that control to bully people. In a general sense, it's just not good for debate.
I hope I've explained myself well enough and that I haven't unduly upset anyone. I might take a little rest from the thread now. I'm still feeling a bit ill and this stuff is quite draining.
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BenWilson, in reply to
without consent it is a violation and a form of violence, isn't that true?
It was a meme, promoted by the staunch feminists of my childhood that "rape is not about sex, it's about violence". I don't really know if it's true, it seems to me that coupling the two does deny some kinds of rape, because it makes it about the intention rather than the consent. But they're certainly strongly linked in my mind.
When I did call off initiations, there were protestations from some of the guys. I tried to make them feel stink about the whole thing "why do you want to get into these guys pants so much?". That sort of worked, but then the follow up came: "Well all right, but can't we at least beat them up?". It confirmed that old meme to me, that the whole abuse of their genitalia aspect of the thing was mostly about power and humiliation.
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A very moving/distressing documentary on Maori tv the other night, called Lumo. About the treatment of women for terrible rape inflicted injuries in a pretty basic hospital in Goma in the Congo. (A fistula hospital, to repair ripped vaginal/bowel/bladder walls -no chance of children or marriage, incontinence, smell, social pariah-ism etc ). Lumo, a young girl, had five surgeries, three weeks in bed with a catheter, and 2 (two!) years later went home to her village. Unable to be contacted since because of rebels. And a local politician had the nerve to question women at a local rally whether their dress had contributed to it. Just as well they had some pretty fierce Mamas who looked out for these girls and women. But even they could do little with the 'rape culture', and rape as an act of war. Same, but different to Western experience of rape I guess.
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3410, in reply to
I saw this film in the weekend;
powerful stuff about the male/female dynamic in Afghanistan, 2009. -
giovanni tiso, in reply to
What information was in the word "triggering" that wasn't already in the words "using mass rape as a weapon"? The word sometimes seems to have a role beyond its ostensible one.
Yes, you're quite right. Let's say that reading the article is even more triggering than my summation of it. But perhaps I used the term improperly.
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giovanni tiso, in reply to
If it was a product of culture it would vary more between different cultures and I don't think it varies much at all.
Whether or not it varies is highly contentious, because the juridical and discursive notion of what constitutes rape varies significantly between countries. So it's not just a matter of comparing statistics about, say, sexual assault, for sexual assault means different things to different cultures and in different contexts. In my country, until not all that long ago, a husband forcing himself on his wife couldn't be accused of it.
And I'm not saying that it's all nurture either. It's just that using a bell curve analogy suggests to me that the propensity is fixed, and all a culture can do is reduce the actual performance of the act, whereas I think we can influence the propensity as well, by increasing understanding and lowering acceptance.
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Emma Hart, in reply to
In that Stroppery thread we ended up with Vicki Anderson's affectionate story about Anika Moa and her wife as a manifestation of "rape culture".
Mngh, see, I still feel like I can't really talk about this. But I'm hoping it was clear enough publicly that some of us were Really Fucking Unhappy about what happened on that thread. For me, it is extremely unpleasant to see men pushed out of discussions because they are men.
(Of course, then I end up in a weird situation where a man is telling me to stop being inclusive of men, and I'm telling him to STFU. There is no WIN.)
However. I don't see how noting that something might be "triggering" acts to shut down or limit a conversation. As Gio has I think implied above, it's not just the subject matter, but the degree of explicitness or how it's treated. With the reservations about the subjective nature of the term I've already noted.
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Megan Wegan, in reply to
However. I don't see how noting that something might be "triggering" acts to shut down or limit a conversation.
And it is probably something that is worth erring on the side of caution on.
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