Speaker: What goes on tour
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__rugby players, or 'thugby" as they call it in melbourne, seem to actually fulfill the negative stereotypes much more than other men though.__
Meh. I think it's men in team situations full stop. There's lots of unsavoury stories about all sorts of male sports teams.
This is sadly all too true (but not true of all teams).
NRL teams appear the worst in Australia, AFL too. I guess it doesn't really matter what the code is... however, to the extent that the ABs are in anyway representative of NZ or NZ men other than as representatives of their code, I'd like to think they'd not behave the way others have and do.
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there's also huge pressure to be a Team and All Guys Together, you know, bros before hos. Which basically puts women in the category of "there for sex".
take my word for it, this isn't even exclusively a sports thing.
i've know gangs of public servants who behave the same way...
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In most cases we say that the person drinking too much isn't absolved of responbsibility for their actions - in fact, it may even be considered to aggravate them (driving, for example).
And being drunk isn't an excuse for raping someone, exactly!
If you were trying to make the other comparison, then there is a huge, huge huge moral difference between endangering other people's lives via drunk driving (which you can stop with not very much prethought at all - either have a sober driver or don't take the car) and, hello, being raped. The premise for drunk driving is that you're not capable of driving while drunk; the premise for being raped while drunk is at least partially that you are incapable of giving consent while drunk. In both cases, alcohol incapacitates you.
I do agree that the "go into town, drink, and score" culture is a huge problem. The best advice for anyone, man or woman, is to not have sex with someone who's drunk or while you're drunk. Getting people to follow that advice is the impossible bit.
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take my word for it, this isn't even exclusively a sports thing.
i've know gangs of public servants who behave the same way...
Hmmmm, not all blokes, nor blokes in groups or teams, are sex offenders. I play sport and have had nights out with my team when reasonable quantities of booze where consumed and no one was an arsehole... I've also encountered groups of women who're behaving pretty poorly too.
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Che, perhaps I misinterpreted you - if you mean "groups" not groups of men, then I see your point.
There's a critical mass dimension to this too; one or two arseholes might not be enough to make a group go feral, four or five does but.
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It's part of the whole thing whereby women are seen as the gatekeepers of everyone's sexuality
That's a good analysis Lucy.
Which basically puts women in the category of "there for sex". And that kind of atmosphere doesn't lend itself well to thinking about women, especially women you're having a one-night-stand with, as people who need to be respected.
I heard stuff in a sports changing room just recently, from people who are otherwise 'reasonable sorts', talking about women. And not random women that they'd met in bars, but women who play the sport at the top level in New Zealand.
It was one of those situations where you later wish you'd said something at the time, even though you would have been in the minority, but I think I was busy trying to pick my jaw up from my lap.
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I'ld just like to give a cheer to the PAS Womens' XV.
I'm off top the subs bench. -
There's a critical mass dimension to this too; one or two arseholes might not be enough to make a group go feral, four or five does but.
that's pretty much it. i used to work dispatching taxis, and hen's nights were *feared* by most drivers.
but again, not excusing the behaviour of the blokes in question here.
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Fascinating...
Deborah:
Not saying "No" does not equal consent.
Obviously, but then Paul:
not saying "yes" means no - that means you have to ask and get a reply - if you can't ask the answer is probably no.
Finally I'd add if the other person can't make that determination (even if they'd say "yes") [...] then it also means no.
Are you sure? If that's true then sadly I have to confess to being a rapist, as well as having been raped.
I guess I'd better let the other people involved know about this.
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Meanwhile, I can't help but notice that the voices who were screaming about the "injustice" of the right to silence in the Kahui case are being silent themselves over this one. Is it because they've learned the value of the right to silence? Or is it just because in this case, the silent accused are rugby players rather than poor Maori?
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I guess I'd better let the other people involved know about this.
No need, I've phoned the police on your behalf.
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My impression, from conversations during the weekend, is that most people, understandably, feel they don't know exactly what happened, but that whatever took place was not good.
And despite nothing you've said changing (ie no new facts have emerged), the buzz this morning on talkback seems to be: that she jolly well should have known what she was in for going back to his room and she shouldn't be crying now. Michael Laws even wondered aloud if this case had 'a touch of the Louise Nichols about it'.
And yet the first 3 pages of discussion here on PAS are no more enlightened (thank you Deborah and Lucy for resetting the course). Everyone chiming in with an opinion based on half baked 'knowledge'. The only fact we know is that we don't know any facts. And getting 'fact's via the UK press/tabloids should be avoided at all costs.
If I meet a female air steward in a bar and go back to her hotel room I am more than likely expecting to have sex with her. I'm not expecting to have the rest of the flight crew watching while we do it, join in, and then abused when I protest I'm not up for all this. I don't expect to have my drink spiked or be given drugs in order to induce me to blow/fck the flight crew. All I wanted was to have sex with an Air Hostess, so what did I do wrong? Why am I being villified?
(My apologies to any Air Crew offended for using them as an illustration)
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This discussion reminds me of some female friends who have a real problems with that ALAC advert of the woman who gets drunk and then dragged down an alleyway by a guy who takes advantage of her being alone and inebriated. Their problem is that it's targeting the woman doing something that she should be able to do as much as anyone else - drink alcohol, rather than the behaviour of the male, which presumably is rape.
Um, Kyle, I've got some damn big issues with that whole campaign. I know it's been kicked to death on another thread, but I've got questions about whether this kind of 'shock jock' public service advertising is effective. Nor am I very impressed by the broadcasting standards loophole that allows this kind of ad to be broadcast pre-watershed.
I'm even more disturbed that anything I've said on this thread you be interpreted as the ravings of a sharia lawyer, who believes any woman who's not tucked up at home sipping herbal tea and singing madrigrals deserves to be raped, harassed or generally treated like shit.
Nor do I believe an erection is a get of jail free card for cretinous and downright criminal sexual misconduct. Just as an FYI, Lucy, you are not responsible for "policing" my sexuality. (Being a male homosexual, you really couldn't do it even if you wanted to.)
It would just be nice if everyone took a little more responsibility for their own alcohol/drug consumption and sexuality.
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Just as an FYI, Lucy, you are not responsible for "policing" my sexuality.
Please believe me when I say I never thought I was. :P
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I was just thinking - if I found myself, drunk, in a hotel room with several drunk rugby players who all wanted to have sex with me, which wasn't what I wanted to do, how difficult would it be to leave?
Cos it seems like it would be really difficult and awkward and embarassing.
And that's me as a 33-year-old woman. I wouldn't even want to imagine what the situation would be like if I was 22 years old and pretty.
How complicated.
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My internet went down and when it came back i got to read the really great discussion by Lucy et al. (Much love to the PAS XV!)
I had a read through and these comments were what struck me:
The problem is that the first response to this sort of thing is always, always "women should do/not do x" rather than "why are we teaching men it's okay to have sex with someone who's too drunk to give consent".
The premise for drunk driving is that you're not capable of driving while drunk; the premise for being raped while drunk is at least partially that you are incapable of giving consent while drunk.
What I began to think about is, is there a point where someone is too drunk to notice that consent has been withdrawn? Their judgment is impaired (much like it would be if they were driving) and they may not be able to tell if the situation has changed. Obviously if she says "no" there's no excuse, but if it's more subtle then maybe in an inebriated state you might not pick it up.
I don't believe that this is any kind of exoneration but is it something to consider? Is it accidental rape? (Note: I'm not sure if I believe this myself, but it might add to the discussion)
rugby players, or 'thugby" as they call it in melbourne, seem to actually fulfill the negative stereotypes much more than other men though.
I think it's men in team situations full stop. There's lots of unsavoury stories about all sorts of male sports teams.
Yet the only sportsperson I can think of who was actually found guilty of rape is Mike Tyson (I know there will be others) and he plays an individual sport (or did at the time).
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(Yikes, a whole page of comments added while constructing mine above.)
I wanted to add another angle: if the hoi polloi are so keen to blame this woman (18?) because she should have known better then ...
Should we also tell our daughters to STFU when they come home from the School Disco crying because instead of getting their 'First Kiss' they got felt up roughly and forced to provide hand relief? Should we tell them that if you want/agree to kiss a boy then don't be surprised if he wants and demands more?
I'd love to see Michael Laws (who has daughters) respond to that scenario.
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I think that you are responsible for everything you do when you're drunk - simple as that.
But I agree there's an issue what if you're both too drunk to give consent - are you both guilty of rape?
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Paul, I'm still alarmed by the tone of your comments which seem to suggest that consent must be explicitly and verbally negotiated before the commencement of any sexual behaviour. Is this really what you mean?
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And that's me as a 33-year-old woman. I wouldn't even want to imagine what the situation would be like if I was 22 years old and pretty.
You plenty pretty for me, and I'm going to stop right there before things become impossibly creepy. :)
Michael Laws even wondered aloud if this case had 'a touch of the Louise Nichols about it'.
Oh Jimminy Cricket... I really hope someone is making a show reel of his particularly creepy mouth-farts for wee Lucy's 16th birthday. Seriously, Nick, why do you insist on torturing yourself?
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yes it is - I think that if you don't you leave yourself open to misunderstandings and you may commit rape without realising it - you need assent from your partner (as does he/she from you).
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It would just be nice if everyone took a little more responsibility for their own alcohol/drug consumption and sexuality.
Are you asking 18 year olds to that or us? Because if you want youth to do it, I think you've got a heck of a task.
(I just realised I was assuming that there were no "young folk" here, sorry to offend, I'll get back to my zimmer frame)
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Paul:
yes it is - I think that if you don't you leave yourself open to misunderstandings and you may commit rape without realising it - you need assent from your partner (as does he/she from you).
While I agree that this would clear up a hell of a lot of grey area, the reality of it seems like some kinda futuristic Sci-Fi scenario. Do you practice this garnering of assent yourself? Or is it just an ideal, at this point.
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Everyone chiming in with an opinion based on half baked 'knowledge'.
Thank you Nick for stating the obvious. It was about time someone did
Lucy, you are not responsible for "policing" my sexuality.
As a heterosexual male I agree with Craig.
A reasonable compromise might be:
If the allegations were true then the rugby players should be censored.
Can we avoid blaming the whole team based male sportsman in the meantime.Can we accept that women quite properly leap to the aid of their sisters and men to defend their brothers.
In the absence of proof we are better to let matters take their course and wait until a misdemeanor is proved.
Is it reasoable to assume that high profile sportsman who get drunk in public and women who seek their company in the small hours of the morning are probably showing poor judgment.
Finally the police may just have wanted to be in Christchurch to see the game or is that being too cynical!!!
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some kinda futuristic Sci-Fi scenario
And it is actually the opening scene of Cherry 2000. The story of which involves a man discovering that a real woman is better than a robot. I'm not sure if that's relevant to this or not.
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