Speaker: To Smock is to Love
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If only all/most support of the bill came in this form, we might have had a far better public discourse.
In 1957, Sweden was the first country to make hitting children illegal.
This, for example, is one place where you diverge from the arguments of those supporting the (albeit highly likely to be unenforced) corrective smacking ban.
Hitting children has always been illegal in New Zealand.
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Anke:
A fascinating post -- brutally honest, very funny in parts, and deeply depressing at the same time.
I actually think this is quite a brave piece. I've written about this topic myself on Public Address, and received some pretty nasty emails in response (not quite death threats, but certainly death hints).
So good on you for putting your head above the parapet to describe how this looks to non-NZ eyes.
I imagine that your article might be uncomfortable reading for some NZers -- but sometimes the truth hurts...
Graeme Edgeler wrote:
Hitting children has always been illegal in New Zealand.
Interestingly, Assoc-Prof Kevin Dawkins (University of Otago School of Law) completely dismisses this claim. In an ODT article (Tuesday, April 10, 2007) he says:
The justification [i.e. Section 59(1): "... is justified in using force by way of correction to a child, if the force used is reasonable"] gives the parent a defence to a charge of assault. [Therefore] provided the force is reasonable, the parent is not criminally liable. So much, then, for the claim that smacking is already unlawful.
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great post thanks.
i think smocking is also pretty inhumane, especially an entire magazine devoted to it. who are these sick people?i have found that most kiwis actually do find the s59 repeal perfectly sensible and un-remarkable when they understand what it's actually about. the current state of hysteria largely stems from the gross misrepresentation of what the bill's about by the nz msm (now there's something to lament when comparing with what germany has). i have also found that germany in particular is way ahead of us in terms of enlightened attitudes to child-rearing, and social policy in general. i wonder how much of that is attributable to the tragic past and how much of it is thanks to a media environment where genuine public discourse can be had?
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that sounds like the professor is living up to his name, is he quoting from the Maxim Institute Journal of Family Law?
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A sad refreshing blog Anke. A pity that the Bill was not called something like " Prevention of Child Abuse Bill". Is it possible that the National Party opposition to the bill might haunt them in the future?
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Riddley Walker wrote:
that sounds like the professor is living up to his name, is he quoting from the Maxim Institute Journal of Family Law?
No, Prof Dawkins article (not available online, unfortunately) is very interesting and thoughtful, and well worth reading. It made me realize how tricksy and devious (some) lawyers can be -- not him, I hasten to add.
Your observation:
I have found that most kiwis actually do find the s59 repeal perfectly sensible and un-remarkable when they understand what it's actually about
... made me feel a little less depressed.
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i think the kinds of friends they've made over their stance on this bill will haunt National in the future for sure.
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Interestingly, Assoc-Prof Kevin Dawkins (University of Otago School of Law) completely dismisses this claim.
Yep - it's a completely ludicrous claim.
I don't think bill supporters have too much they can complain about when discussing media protrayal of the bill with the ludicrous arguments many (not just on the fringes) of them are making:
* It doesn't make smacking illegal
* Smacking is already illegal
* The proposed amendment codifying the safety from prosecution of parents whose smacks are (and it has to be all three to get someone off a charge) light AND minor AND inconsequential is worse than the present lawetc.
There are many many good reasons to ban smacking. Some have been made here, and some have been made in a few other places. Sue Bradford has made very few.
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Jo S,
I have wondered how much of the opposition to this bill has been due to sheer dislike of the MP presenting it. I can see the sense behing the bill, but have to constantly remind myself that I should not let the fact that Sue Bradford irritates the @#$% out of me bias my opinion on the debate. If only there was more calm, rational discussion of the point of view. Thanks for a great post Anke.
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Yes, it's not at all bad that Destiny Church is marching to Parliament on Thursday. Hopefully it will open people's eyes as to who else is in their boat and make them rethink.
What I am hoping for is that all those who oppose the bill because they hate the "nanny state" and "political correctness gone mad" and all that, but are not fundamentalist christians or right wing, will get it: It's so uncool to smack - especially with the likes of Brian Tamaki as the poster child. That same message has worked extremely well to stop smoking, at least in NZ and the US (not at all in Germany, though). What we can do to stop smocking... hell, I don't know. Ban needles? -
What we can do to stop smocking... hell, I don't know. Ban needles?
too late, those filthy politically correct do-gooders have set up needle exhanges to entrench the scourge of smocking. perhaps we could get Bishop Brian to wear some in his next parade, he seems to like dressing up.
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Thanks for this post Anke. And I agree about NZ's mask slipping. There are some ugly attitudes out there. I don't dare listen to talkback radio.
I can offer one positive story though. The talk of this bill has prompted my friend to again bring up her opposition to her husband's smacking of their child and he is now reading a book about kinder discipline options and has made a vow to stop.However, he is an intelligent, globally-conscious gentlemen who understands that he smacks in anger and not out of a belief that it is somehow GOOD for the child. That has got to be the most ridiculous argument I've heard so far (almost as inane as the old line, 'I was smacked and I've turned out fine' or 'Many of my friends are Chinese but...')
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Ban needles?
I need those needles, dammit. They're for perfectly legitimate cross-stitch. And mending, yeah. You can take my needle from my cold dead hand.
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They're for perfectly legitimate cross-stitch
tell that to the Judge. and enough of that 'needles don't make smocking, people make smocking' carry-on.
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what ever you do, don't share needles.
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i'm with you all the way Anke. My parents left New Zealand with me and my brother in 1977 because they couldn't stand the physical punishment common place in the primary school my brother (then 6) was attending. You'd get strapped, and not just on the spot, no you'd wait until friday assembly and get strapped in front of the rest of the school...
So I grew up in Holland, where they attitude is to physical punishment is very similar to what you described about Germany. There's no way the state would sanction it. We talked surprised and mockingly about the anglo-saxon approach to their own children.
Now i'm back living here and have two kiwi born children of my own.. because i thought it would be such a wonderful place to bring up kids (and times have changed i thought). And now i know how exasperating it sometimes can be, dealing with these irrational but wonderful creatures. But nothing, nothing in my experience makes me feel that my right to hurt my children should be protected. My parenting is not perfect and no parent is. We're also sometimes irrational and do things we regret. But if a parent knows what the rules are, they can live up to them. Isn't it just like children?
The rules are not hitting.
I feel like i'm talking to my 4 year old!
So make the law. then parents know what the rules are.
they'll deal with it. just like the kids do.
anyway. preaching to the converted here -
preaching to the converted here
well maybe Kirsten, but it's really important sane people like yourself speak up on this in order that we avoid the Spiral of Silence the bill's opponents are so desperate to promote.
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Thanks Kirsten. When I talk to my Kiwi friends or those who immigrated from England, I am always amazed to hear their stories of strapping at school - and some of them are younger than me! I wonder what an impact that has as to what you accept as normal. Maybe because I grew up in the firm belief that smacking is wrong and poor parenting, I feel like being catapulted back to the 50s now. On the few occasions when my parents smacked me out of anger, they regretted it and apologized for it later. On a scale of societal change, they were probably where a lot of young kiwi parents are at now.
So give it another 30 - 40 years... -
There are some ugly attitudes out there.
Yeah, the undercurrents here can be very nasty. The involvement of Lordgod Tamaki is a bad sign IMO. I just don't get the acceptance of a casual swat at the child as it spills its' drink or something. It makes no sense.
Mind you banning a centuries old handicraft makes no sense either, one does it in the privacy of ones own home for ones own personal use. Yes I could understand criminalising it if there were black market smocking rings, but I just don't see them. I'm glad that this thread came up though.
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nice to see real bishops in favour of the bill.
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Hopefully Bishop Randerson takes over Garth George's column when he leaves the city.
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I thought that Garth would be like G.K.Chesterton and throw his articles out of his window so that adoring locals would find them and take them to the train station where the train would be waiting specially to whisk the evening wisdom off to the big town.
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Speaking of the ODT - Katherine Rich's status as the only remaining National MP supporting the repeal of the amendment led yesterday's paper.
Must be hard to be her right about now I am guessing
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crikey, what a relief! thank you so much for that post anke (i notice a lot of people have said thanks). i have been home from four years living in the UK for just over a year, and have an eight month old baby boy. like many others who have lived overseas for a number of their young adult years (is 29 - 34 young?) i seem to have developed a somewhat idealised idea of what kiwiland is through the lense of homesickness and absence.
i am anti-smacking to the core of my being and i have watched with absolute horror the media circus and my compatriots marching to defend their belief that it is their right to harm their children! i just can't believe it! it really is such a relief to see someone writing down and publishing pretty much what i also think about the whole deal. it is my last hope that, as someone else commented, if people really understood (no thanks to the media coverage) what the intention of this bill is i.e. to remove "reasonable force" as a defence for violence towards children, they would support it without a second thought.
sorry for the essay of a post - but the last poll i saw about this debate placed 75% of respondents in the totally disagree with the repeal of S.59 camp and i just felt so despondent ... at least on the anglican website (just) it was closer to 50/50 .... mind you, the former poll i quote was on treasures.co.nz (did i mention i'm the mum of a wee babby???? har har).
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I was so pleased to se the Anglican Bishops coming out in favour of Bradford's bill. Unlike the Catholic Bishops, who think that parents have a right to hit their children. It never occurred to me that the Catholic Church in NZ might want to get into bed with Brian Tamaki and his ilk.
Thnaks for the great post, Anke. As I have posted elsewhere, I think there is hope.
Parents only smack in the privacy of their homes. Virtually no parent smacks their child in public these days. I don't know why, but I might speculate that people know that a parent who has to smack is a parent who does not know how to parent well, and no parent wants to cope with the disapprobation that comes along with not parenting well, as shown by smacking in public.
Hopefully, that sense of disapproval of parents who smack in public might just be the beginnings of a change in sensibilities.
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