Hard News: Meanwhile in Iraq ...
120 Responses
First ←Older Page 1 2 3 4 5 Newer→ Last
-
Andrew,
If the US hadn't gone into Iraq, then I presume Al Qaeda would have put all their effort into beating the Yanks in Afghanistan, but so what? They had to be dealt with somewhere, and from the US' persepctive, it is better to play an away game than a home game.I don't think, infact I am sure the US did not anticipate Al Qaeda showing up in Iraq the way they did, but when they did, what else are you going to do but fight them? And beating them in Iraq is great news.
-
Iraq Body Count has 76k to 83k dead since 2003 due to military or paramilitary activity.
IBC isn't a study or a survey, it's a summary of news reporting.
The Lancet surveys -- the only peer-reviewed study of deaths associated with the Iraq war -- find 650,000 "excess deaths" (this includes stuff like the cholera epidemic).
You may not find the results palatable, by the methodology is absolutely standard and has been used repeatedly to measure attrition in conflict zones.
-
I would have so much more respect for the GoP if they would drop the WMD/Al Quaeda/9-11 rhetoric. No one with with any logical reasoning ability can believe it with a straight face after the event. I especially find it har to believe that it's easier to detect nuclear programmes in North Korea and Iran than Iraq (mind you, the US did miss the boat on India and Pakhistan).
-
Ben,
That's because no one actually knows.
You are absolutely right, no one actually knows what would have happened if Saddam was still in power. But you can make reasonable predictions can't you? In fact you need to, don't you?
How the is any country supposed to run itself other than by making its best predictions of what is likely to happen in the future and what it should do about it?
-
James,
that's like saying it would have been nice if they had cured your brain tumour, but your nasty rash has cleared up.
-
Russell, I'm not sure pulling out surveys helps in the 'truth' process. There have been other figures eg from the Iraqi Hospital records which put deaths at a much less figure.
-
U.S. military leaders in Baghdad have put out for bid a two-year, $20 million public relations contract that calls for extensive monitoring of U.S. and Middle Eastern media in an effort to promote more positive coverage of news from Iraq.
Only vaguely related in a 'how stupidly funny is this' way:
Fema official regrets fake press conference
By the standards of Fema, the US government agency that notoriously botched the relief effort after Hurricane Katrina, the attempt at news management following the California wildfires seemed relatively benign. At least it didn't leave thousands of people stranded without food or shelter.
When no reporters showed up to a last-minute news conference on the fires last week, agency staff members simply asked the questions themselves.
Who'd have thought it, posts on how Iraq is a cesspool and James shows up with his pompoms!
If the US hadn't gone into Iraq, then I presume Al Qaeda would have put all their effort into beating the Yanks in Afghanistan, but so what? They had to be dealt with somewhere, and from the US' persepctive, it is better to play an away game than a home game.
I'm sure... wait Russell has posted the figures for me conveniently!... 650,000 deaths are happy that they got to host the 'home game'.
Because if Anton Oliver talking about how the All Black changing rooms smelt like death isn't OK, then I've got a fair feeling that thousands of deaths, displacement, violence, terror, occupation, civil war, disease and upheaval shouldn't really be written off as "Thank god we're not playing Fuck up the Middle East at the Superdome!" A bit repulsive even.
-
I don't think, infact I am sure the US did not anticipate Al Qaeda showing up in Iraq the way they did
Odd,given that Cheney said on June14,2004 that "he (Saddam Hussein ) had long established ties with al Qaeda.". This was backed up by Bush two days later and led to a poll indicating 57 percent of Americans surveyed believed that Iraq was helping Al Qaeda before the war, including 20 percent who believed Iraq was linked to the Sept. 11 attacks.
There is no evidence to indicate that Al Qaeda would put any effort into fighting anyone in Afghanistan. The Taliban however...
-
A bit repulsive even.
Just a little, yes.
-
You know, I was fine with the US invading, all the torture, the scandal, the corruption with things like Haliburton, the cillivian casulties, the soldiers having their tours extended and extended and everything, but now I think that the US have gone too far. Releasing sharks with fricking laser beams into Iraqi waters? It's time to stand up and say no sharks for oil! Unless it's vegetable oil and there's chips involved too...
-
And repellant too.
-
Oh Kyle, you flushed me out with your mention of pompoms. I am sure that could not have been accidental. The 50 cents yours.
Can I just say even if James does bring his pompoms, the PAS Women's XV will not be playing an away game in Iraq any time soon.
-
To describe the Lancet study as an outlier is too generous. It is so far out by itself that it is not funny.
I forget when it came out but if you divided the total by the number of months it came to a completely silly monthly death toll, which couldn't be corroborated with any other records. Like dead people for example.
If I remember correctly its methodology didn't stand up so well after all, peer reviewed or not (maybe the phrase peer review might be expanded to include "anti-war academic circle jerk, in this instance).
I recall two of the faults in the survey were that it only included larger streets, which were more likely to have experienced deaths from car bombs or fighting. For obvious reasons the surveyors didn’t feel like going down back alleys etc Also it relied on people saying whether their had been any deaths of which they knew, so many of the “yeses” could have been for the same person, or for reasons of human nature and the wish to be boastful etc.
Another data point is the Iraqi Health Ministry's number is in the 100k range.
The death toll is bloody terrible, I am not meaning to belittle it in any way, but let’s deal with reasonable numbers and acknowledge that most of the dead have been killed by insurgents and terrorists, not the MNF.
How many people would have been killed by Saddam if he was still in power? A lower number, but the country and its people have a chance of a decent future now, they had none whatsoever under Hussein.
-
"Thank god we're not playing Fuck up the Middle East at the Superdome!" A bit repulsive even.
Well, it certainly makes it a bit hard for anyone who isn't a complete hypocrite (as well as being a worthless piece of shit) to complain about Saudi Arabian terrorists deciding to blow up buildings in New York.
Better to play an away game, right?
-
This from the article about FEMA:
Fema official regrets fake press conference
On Monday the stunt cost a Fema official his job. John Philbin, who planned to leave Fema anyway to become press officer for the director of national intelligence, told CBS television he regretted the charade. "I should have cancelled it quickly. I did not have good situational awareness of what was happening," he said.
You couldn't make this shit up. I must remember to use that one myself. "I did not have good situational awareness of what was happening."
-
But you can make reasonable predictions can't you? In fact you need to, don't you?
You can, but you don't treat them as facts. There are many other possible outcomes than the ones you mentioned, and the probabilities are all highly debatable.
-
but the country and its people have a chance of a decent future now,
I'm sure women being beaten and murdered for wanting to attend schools and hold down jobs would be happy to discuss that perspective with you.
-
it is better to play an away game than a home game
What a revolting use of sports metaphor. Kind of makes you understand people wanting to play for the other team.
-
Oh the study as published in the Lancet was strong enough. The Johns Hopkins study has been well scruitinised...
http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/231587/4/
The study has been extrapolated to indicate that now there would be some 1.2 million deaths. This number closely parallels other estimates...
http://www.samefacts.com/archives/the_war_in_iraq_/2007/06/the_deaths_in_the_pottery_barn.php
-
Russell, I'm not sure pulling out surveys helps in the 'truth' process. There have been other figures eg from the Iraqi Hospital records which put deaths at a much less figure.
The Lancet study used established methodology, the same as has been used to assess the toll in many other conflicts. And, as I said, it stands alone in having been peer-reviewed.
The reason you don't think it's helpful is because you don't like what it says.
-
Yup, if the news continues in this pattern it can only get better - when Iraq is completely depopulated, and there is no one left to kill.
ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant...
-
on the other hand, its nice and sunny outside
And it's Halloween!
Laugh at the fictional horror, because the real horror is sometimes unbearable.
-
looking back at our time of Empire I suppose our "away game" was the fighting on the Somme and at Passchendaele. Our belief in Empire and with it our Imperial hubris is on war memorials everywhere.
-
Perhaps the true horror is that Battlefield Iraq is now virtually accepted as part of the satus quo, like Aids Africa.
Perhaps the international presence in Iraq can now only be described as palliative. -
WH,
A lower number, but the country and its people have a chance of a decent future now
Meh. Its hard to have a future if you're dead, I suppose.
The most telling thing against the occupation is the sheer number of Americans who predicted that it could cause Iraq to implode. Add to that the large number of military officers and government/ex-Administration officials who have publicly stated their view that the post-invasion planning was inadequate and that the execution of the occupation has been incompetent. Its a list far too long and star-studded to recount here.
I'm not going to argue statistics with you, but in other news, Bush has about 12 months left in office. The Wapo recently noted that he has stopped going to church. May G*d have mercy on his soul.
Post your response…
This topic is closed.