Hard News: Another nail in the coffin of music DRM
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Paying 10, 30, 90 dollars to have my hearing damaged for a couple of hours, when I could buy the CD for $25
its a valid point and one which keeps a number of people away from gigs.
The problem with keeping the volume down while attempting a balanced mix is you are stuck with being as loud as the loudest instument off the stage. this is commonly the cymbals or snare drum.
in a small venue like the dux delux in chch you are tanding pretty close to a full live drummer, and in the case of rock music he's hitting those drums pretty hard. of course its going to be loud in the room and its very little to do with the sound engineer that it is that loud, its purely that a drummer rocking out would infact be that loud in that sized room. The sound engineer should be bringing the other instruments and vocals up to meet that balance, which was already loud.you don't have that problem with Karen obviously cos she's one person with a guitar. The issue in that sort of space is the noise of the venue. people talking over the band etc, bar tills ringing, it can be hard to do a low volume mix in those conditions cos the singer gets drowned out.
the solution to a lot of the volume issues is better sized venues, concert atmospheres where people shut up and pay attention to the music, and the off bit off acoustic treatment wouldn't go a miss to reduce the sound slamming around the room. That's probably not going to happen though cos live venues aren't raking the cash in enough to justify the expense.
Guess its either stick to your folk music or plug them holes.
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The problem with keeping the volume down while attempting a balanced mix is you are stuck with being as loud as the loudest instument off the stage. this is commonly the cymbals or snare drum.
Yes those are good points. It's big venues where they've miked up all the drums to hell and then every guitar to go with it so that I feel deaf at the back of the hall that gets me.
I heard Pluto at the Dunedin Town Hall some four or five years ago at orientation and I got to the point where I concluded that the music would be about the right volume if I was next door in the public library having a wee read. I went out of the main hall and into the outside corridors because the noise got to be unpleasant.
I have tremendously fond memories of dancing to Blackthorn every Monday night at the Albert Arms in the mid-90s. The floor used to bounce up and down about six inches there were so many people doing their own impression of Celtic dancing in a cramped space in front of the band. At least we had rhythm, if not talent.
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I really don't get the whole loud live music thing, never have. I'm not such a massive fan of live music to start with - I won't just pay to hear a band unless I already like them, as I'm more into it for the music than the experience of the gig.
I remember that Karen Hunter tour, Kyle Matthews do you think that that good atmosphere you remember from ARC (as it used to be) can be recreated by pushing play on your home entertainment system? Its a bit like the difference between television and theatre or cinema surely? While you might be guaranteed to get a technically good copy of the work with well mixed sound every time (thanks Robbery) there is a human chemistry that will be missing.
Many people would argue that the gig is quintessentially 'the experience' of the music for that reason (pheromones). Although purists might also argue this has obviously shifted with increasing amounts of sound performance that relies more on technology and less on instrumental timbre.
To balance my own comments about the primacy of pheromones: There are a few Luddites lurking who think that a return to live performance as primary delivery will solve copyright issues. What they seem to mean is get rid of that pesky technology and the problem of copyright will evaporate. This sets the discussion back before the age of mechanical reproduction (nod to Walter Benjamin) where the authentic product is the one with the direct touch of its maker. Besides the obvious delusional longing for bucolic utopias... the box is open, even if we could why would we want to shut it? The Gorillaz performance work has played in and with this divide beautifully...a blended delivery where artists refuse to be an 'authentic' performance spectacle in the rock tradition, but there was still a crowd experience and a kind of charismatic mystique...as well as technically good quality sound and image.
81stColumn made some good points about what I would call an open source ethos in arts and music. (without suggesting that musicians dont deserve fair pay for their work) there is a productive strategy in collective and self publishing...a new millennial version of the garage party perhaps, where the event creates a new audience and market for itself.
sorry long post, this is a great thread.
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I remember that Karen Hunter tour, Kyle Matthews do you think that that good atmosphere you remember from ARC (as it used to be) can be recreated by pushing play on your home entertainment system?
Oh yes, the live music experience is definitely different from the studio recording.
But lots of live music experiences I find get wrecked by excessive volume. Live music seems to often translate into loud music, which is a shame, and often not necessary.
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the live experience for me is enjoyable for things that aren't on the cd.
one of those is volume, I'd have to admit to liking a gig that envelopes you in sound,
one of my best gig going experiences was snapper at Uni of canterbury mixed by paul kean. that room is normally shit, hard surfaces making for a hard sound but paul pulled a great balance at this gig. standout song was cause of you. sonicly pleasing to say the least.Other good things bout gigs are different versions of songs, and unreleased tracks, the rest is socialising.
I like a band who are prepared to wing it, make it up, take a risk.sonics is a big thing for me though, a well sculpted sound at a volume that you can feel but doesn't hurt, its a beautiful thing.
as kyle pointed out though, its somewhat rare to get that perfect balance, which is why I take earplugs to every gig. its not worth going deaf for the live experience and its not reasonable to stay at home and miss the action just cos the band is too cheap to hire someone with some skill to make sure they sound just right.
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Just for another earplug recommendation, these are worth getting:
Cheaper than the molded things, better than those horrible plastic spiky things or the lumps of foam that make you feel you just got off an international flight from Atlantis...
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Myself I listen to so called club / electronic music at home, in the car etc, not in any way exclusively but whenever the mood takes me.
straight?
Depends what your definition of dance/club music is. For me, hard-house/trance is less likely to float my boat but beats and breaks, and twisted electronica from a ton of artists and labels such as Ninjatune, Mr Scruff, Chemical Bros and gorgeous big gay house music from Ian Pooley, Carl Craig, David Holmes, Adam Freeland and a load of others makes home and car listening eminently possible without external stimulants.
Listening to the Metro Area CD while cruising through the Lewis Pass of the Southern Alps is highly recommended, makes perfect sense.
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Listening to the Metro Area CD while cruising through the Lewis Pass of the Southern Alps is highly recommended, makes perfect sense.
Just as Burial went rather well spinning along the Bypass into Seminyak this afternoon.
Peter, your examples work for me perfectly too. No chemicals required.
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makes perfect sense
Sarcasm?
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I love me some big gay house music with the dishes.
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gorgeous big gay house music from Ian Pooley, Carl Craig, David Holmes, Adam Freeland and a load of others makes home and car listening eminently possible without external stimulants.
"big gay house"???????
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Just as Burial went rather well spinning along the Bypass into Seminyak this afternoon.
Ooh yes, Burial is on my list to grab at some point. Unfortunately (or fortunately) we're doing the big family OE later this year so all our dosh is going into savings and all the fun things I like to do like buying music is on hold until we get back. Well almost, I'm really looking forward to visits to Dub Vendor and the Soul Jazz Records music store in London and suspect this is where my baggage allowance will take a bit of a hammering!
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"big gay house"???????
?????? ?
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I never got past the lack of substance in dance music.
loved the sonics but that wore off after few mins -
Burial
Can I just say, and only slightly on-topic, that I've found Burial to be a lot of hype and no substance. Quite boring, actually, and attracting attention away from other acts who IMO are much more worthy of it: Kode9, for example, whose recent album Memories of the Future (feat. The Spaceape) is just frankly incredibly good.
Metro Area CD while cruising Lewis Pass / Southern Alps
Peter, I wasn't being facetious. Did it really make perfect sense? (In terms of listening to an artist called "Metro" Area while traveling in the remote heart of the country?) If so, how?
Or did you mean something else?
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or maybe the lack of substance is the point, no thinking required?
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Ooh yes, Burial is on my list to grab at some point. Unfortunately (or fortunately) we're doing the big family OE later this year so all our dosh is going into savings and all the fun things I like to do like buying music is on hold until we get back.
You could go to emusic.com and get it as part of your no-obligation 25 free downloads. You'd have enough for Prince Fatty too -- I'm sure you'd dig that.
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or maybe the lack of substance is the point, no thinking required?
No, it's just different music.
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I think there's a little something to my point without being rude.
The repetitive and simplified nature of much dance music means you don't have to think too much about the deep and meaningful lyrics or complex chord structures, which probably makes it very good for dancing too, or driving to, a soundtrack while doing something else. -
I think there's a little something to my point without being rude.
The repetitive and simplified nature of much dance music means you don't have to think too much about the deep and meaningful lyrics or complex chord structures, which probably makes it very good for dancing too, or driving to, a soundtrack while doing something else.No one's going to bite, are they? Please god no...
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I think there's a little something to my point without being rude.
The repetitive and simplified nature of much dance music means you don't have to think too much about the deep and meaningful lyrics or complex chord structures, which probably makes it very good for dancing too, or driving to, a soundtrack while doing something else.That’s part of it; a lot of the great stuff imho isn’t necessarily simple/dumb but more long form covering up complex subtle shifts in melody or tension. A lot of the great Carl Craig stuff for example has a direct linage back to Herbie hancocks Chameleon for example, whilst a lot of the more dubby house/techno can be traced straight to Miles Davis incredible early seventies work.
and it can be incredibly engaging also, not just background music.
I've found Burial to be a lot of hype and no substance. Quite boring, actually, and attracting attention away from other acts who IMO are much more worthy of it: Kode9, for example, whose recent album Memories of the Future (feat. The Spaceape) is just frankly incredibly good.
Oh yes, Kode9, wonderful stuff, do seek out his remix of The Bugs "Skeng" divine. The most recent Burial album is a bit tricky, with more of a garage influence. But do go back and listen to the first one, it is more drawn out and spacious than kode9, but hearing some of the same samples used in different ways is quite rewarding. Burial is apparently quite definitely now way even close NOT aphex twin.......
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No one's going to bite, are they? Please god no...
ha! they did and intelligently too. just cos I don't personally like dance music doesn't mean I can't discuss and understand its appeal to others.
I cast my mind back to being 16 and very VERY focused on what I liked and didn't like. Fucking loathed some stuff, which I've later come to still not like but understand why other people might like it.
Used to hate all classical music cos its what the folks liked, but later discovered that they were listening to the pap, and there was some powerful stuff tucked away from th surface (ok I realise that sounds silly now but as a teen who was I to know) I like that I was so opinionated though, and that others like Mr Grigg had a similar feeling toward other genres (dire straits, sorry, I won't mention them again)
I was very ain't rock at the time too, or I guess it was our perceived view of rock, long haired pretentious lead soloing wankers. Guess thats what punk as all about, but now, well I still don't like leadbreaks but there's the odd good song to be found from the 70's if you look, I guess........
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or maybe the lack of substance is the point, no thinking required?
No, it's just different music.
Just noting, possibly tangentially, that over ten years ago (!) on the Elvis Costello discussion list, Simon and I had a very similar argument with what the world now calls rockists. We, of course, were on the side of all that is righteous and good ('big gay house music', etc), while I seem to remember that everyone else... emphatically wasn't. But perhaps I just have a 'persecution complex memory' of the whole thing...
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"big gay house"???????
?????? ?
sorry for being obtuse, I wasnt sure what angle to attack that phrase from....I am not clear on what gay house is (not even gettting into the minefield of sexuality discrimination...). My initial reaction is that it would describe the high energy poppy dance music of the early nineties, glossy and airbrushed. Or would it be a reference to the birth of House music, the warehouse, Frankie Knuckles et al.......
either way I have trouble attaching such a desription to Carl Craig, and cartainly not David Holmes or Adam Freeland. imho. for what its worth.
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...attracting attention away from other acts who IMO are much more worthy of it: Kode9, for example, whose recent album Memories of the Future (feat. The Spaceape) is just frankly incredibly good.
Don't know it Stephen, I'll check some out.
Peter, I wasn't being facetious. Did it really make perfect sense? (In terms of listening to an artist called "Metro" Area while traveling in the remote heart of the country?) If so, how?
Ah, I see what you mean. I should say Metro Area is the band name so the eponymous album doesn't specifically point to any kind of 'urban' reflecting sound. It's funky electronica giving a hat tip to 'Rockit' era Herbie Hancock, but much cooler than that description sounds. It's interesting dance music, nothing dumbed down about it at all, and was perfect for a drive we did through the Pass a year or two back.
Actually, another time we were driving up the Wairau Valley in Marlborough in Autumn and had Bic Runga's 'Beautiful Collision' album on and it was perfect for that drive. It's quite an ambient album and it went really nicely with the big scenery (loads of colours, Richmond Range mountains etc...) , just a really good fit. It's not an album I'd regularly throw on at home, probably, but it was perfect for that drive. I like it when that happens.
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