Cracker: Bye Wellington
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You're leaving? Who can we follow around now?
Most importantly, I hope to still be able to continue my duties as the reigning Wellingtonista Best Dub-dub-dubber.
Sorry Damian, between leaving, those topless photos surfacing and that video of you trying to explain why Americans can't find Iraq on a map, I guess you're going to have to hand back your crown.
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Wow... am I the only person who finds a messiah a damn sight more attractive than someone whose supporters should get off the martyr trip, and do something useful with the lumber and nails?
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But does being a good speaker make you a cult leader?
Me so old. Me remember Ross Perot. Ross talk good and people love Ross.
Which isn't to say I don't support Obama. US voters are possibly so jaded they'd rather someone with no experience took the job, such is the desire for change. There is a pervading feeling that they're all corrupt bastards (or bitches, vis a vis Hillary) so why risk letting any of them (politics as usual) get back in the Whitehouse?
And speaking of Perot, no Democrat minded when he got in the race because he 'stole' votes off Bush (the Elder). No Democrat minded when Kucinich got in the race for the Dem nomination either. But as soon as Ralph Nader wants to run for President as a third party ....
PS - can I plug the 60 Minutes item on Rove I posted on PAS Monitor ...?
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I forgot to mention it, and I'd love to find the clip (have trawled through YouTube but there's a lot there), but there was one post-primary speech Obama gave, and I remember fixating on this middle-aged woman standing behind him to the right. She acted exactly like a young woman at a Beatles concert (in fact, she could have been, back in 1963), and would jump, squirm, giggle and scream with excitement every time he reached some crescendo in his speech.
If anyone remembers seeing the same thing and can remember which speech it was, post it here please.
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I know know how closely you watch these things, Damien, but Senator Clinton is no slough at having plenty of folks who will piss their pants on cue. And I can't for the life of me understand why Bill Clinton still get treated like a rock star, though I've got to admit the Clinton Charisma always struck me as somewhat opaque.
I actually like that Key and Clark have all the charisma of stale rock buns. Winston Peters has 'charisma', and he's a douche bag.
And just to play devil's advocate for a moment, could Obama's real problem be that he's way too 'black' -- and like it or not, so much African-American rhetoric and culture comes straight from the pulpit and the choir loft. Deal with it.
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If we must compare John Key to an American pollie, let's get it right. Obama? JFK? Nah.
He's Dan Quayle.
"We don't want to go back to tomorrow, we want to go forward."
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And just to play devil's advocate for a moment, could Obama's real problem be that he's way too 'black' -- and like it or not, so much African-American rhetoric and culture comes straight from the pulpit and the choir loft.
Yeah, but most preachers manage to get some specifics in from, say, the 10 commandments, into their sermons.
Obama doesn't seem to.
Joe Klein had a pithy comment last week: the Obama campaign is now about how wonderful the Obama campaign is. Which, if true, suggests to me it could all implode very quickly. Say in about October.
I know this is the cynical journo in me, [although one or two cynical journos seem quite captivated ] but when it comes to charismatic politicos the default setting on my bullshit detector is well into the danger zone.
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That's an easy thing to think Rob, but Obama's schtick isn't shallow -- the Lawrence Lessig endorsement had a big impact on me. The slate seems to be quite centrist, but that tallies with his big-tent message. And as I pointed out in the post, he's an effective legislator.
The Klein thing was shallow. Obama is a great orator, but that's not a bad thing. I like candidates who speak in sentences. But c'mon -- if you have a great speech, you give it in every town, right? Sure, Joe Klein from Time is gonna get tired of hearing it, but the people in those towns won't. Like they don't get tired of the same set from U2.
I think Klein is covering his ass: he's been raving about Obama's executive skills for a while.
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I had quite an enjoyable night watching Obama YouTube clips. It's actually the first time any politician has managed to get me enthused. I definitely saw the woman Damian is talking about, or a similar one. She was not only wriggling and stamping, but she also had her hands on a middle aged black guy, and gave him a good yank on every cheer point. He looked like he was getting more enthusiastic to save his arm.
It really reminded me of my one trip to New York, where I took the time to go to an Abyssinian Baptist Church, to see if it really was like all the cliches suggest. I was surprised - it surpassed the cliches in everything except the choral singing, which was just really, really competent, but not amazingly over-the-top. But the minister (or whatever you call it in that brand of christianity) was the Reverend Butts, and he had the crowd in the palm of his hand. On each point there was a group "Yeah?", and similar such conversational pause fillers. I guess you have to do it for a while to get the timing right. There were constant interjections from the audience: "Preach well, brother", "Praise the Lord", "That's it man, preach on", "I seen the light". And there was no chance of sitting there quietly. A small ozzie guy I was with had a huge mama next to him, who shook him by the arm on every point, until he was yelling "Praise be", at every point. I stuck to trying to master the conversational "yeah?" and "NO!", which was embarrassing when I accidentally got it the wrong way round once, but the titters from all around made me realize it was not an uncommon gaffe for a weird sounding white man. The place was packed like I've never seen in a church. It looked to seat about as many people as the St James theatre, in several tiers, and the aisles were full of standing people, going right out the door.
The content of the speech was not especially extensive or deep, but it was delivered in a very powerful way. I thought it was a huge improvement on most of the church services I've been to over the years (which is not many). It was a very effective way of delivering a message that was pretty much just advice about how to invest money. I definitely left the place feeling great, and I'm no Christian.
I think it's unfair to hassle Obama for his apparently Messianic style. It's just a very popular style in the States. It works, and it doesn't really get in the way of the message. It's a huge improvement on dull political speeches which are also soft on content, but like to hide behind being boring. I don't think it says he's aiming to be the Messiah any more than every presidential candidate always has. He's just good at it.
As for what he's going to do, to me the only important thing is Iraq, and he already opposed it way more than any other viable candidate. That speaks volumes to me. I couldn't give a crap about how the Americans are going to manage their economy and internal services, except in so far as they start with not wasting such a large chunk of it on killing foreigners.
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Why does Obama have less substance than (H) Clinton?
They can go head to head on policy issues such as healthcare plans; just have a look at his website. And it's not as though Clinton has any more stellar a career in government office than Obama.
Also note that his campaign is far better organised than hers. He had people on the ground in Texas months before her people showed up (and then admitted they didn't understand the Texas caucus rules). He's been running a campaign based on street-level organising, she's been relying on Mark Penn's PR skills. So if competence is the ability to engage and organise people who are themselves competent, he's more competent than she is.
The fact that he's a far better orator doesn't mean he's only an orator.
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And I can't for the life of me understand why Bill Clinton still get treated like a rock star, though I've got to admit the Clinton Charisma always struck me as somewhat opaque.
Well he was the first PILF in my lifetime.
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So I have criticised the US media for the way they portrayed Clinton as a witch etc. but this Obama "cult" meme about Obama is equally shallow. So he's a good orator, like Nelson Mandela maybe?
As the man says, you can go to his web site for his 10 point plans, but unless someone actually *inspires* America to take back their government what hope is there is action ever getting started?
I have heard him speak in detail about foreign policy and domestic policy, he's not an idiot and has substance.
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As for what he's going to do, to me the only important thing is Iraq, and he already opposed it way more than any other viable candidate. That speaks volumes to me. I couldn't give a crap about how the Americans are going to manage their economy and internal services, except in so far as they start with not wasting such a large chunk of it on killing foreigners.
Heh. Good point. I hadn't thought of it in such terms before.
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No point in getting interested in the internal politics of a nation clearly in its sunset years. A nation where 70%+ of the population still believe in ghosts just can't be taken seriously.
So just accept the fact all those Democrats watched The West Wing and think that Obama is Jimmy Smits.
Now, will it be China, or will India slip up the rear to be the next superpower, or will we realise the only way out is a world government and a reach for the stars...
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Well he was the first PILF in my lifetime.
During the 1992 election campaign, I remember telling some friends at school (I was 17) that I thought Clinton was the first good looking American president since Kennedy.
They all looked at me like I was mental.
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But c'mon -- if you have a great speech, you give it in every town, right? Sure, Joe Klein from Time is gonna get tired of hearing it, but the people in those towns won't.
Well, yes. I can understand why everyone is getting campaign bus cabin fever -- just before Super Size Me Tuesday both Clinton and Obama were visibly exhausted and sounded like they'd picked up a three carton a day cigarette habit. Primary season is bad enough, but the general becomes outright sadistic.
Dare I say it, perhaps politics nerds occasionally need a reality check: Not everyone shares our passion for microscopic textual analysis of ever cub-clause, and furiously trying to divine the metaphysical significance of Hillary buying a new pant suit or Obama scratching his balls to rapturous applause.
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After George Bush, how bad can Obama possibly be? Even if he's Jimmy Carter bad, at least it's an improvement on Bush. And I believe there is more substance to Obama than you suspect. Even Cornel West digs him. Obama has great potential. </the_force>
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I remember telling some friends at school (I was 17) that I thought Clinton was the first good looking American president since Kennedy.
They all looked at me like I was mental.
well of course they did, like, omigod - had you forgotten this guy??
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jb,
<quote>I know know how closely you watch these things, Damien, but Senator Clinton is no slough at having plenty of folks who will piss their pants on cue.</quote/>
And not only for Senator Clinton.
I'm quite convinced that a dominant incontinence chromosome pair has at some stage insinuated itself into America's DNA, making large chunks of the populace highly susceptible to ANY flavour of fluff/waffle/overtly charismatic behaviour/wuggawuuga.
If I had the 3 remaining viable candidates as applicants for a senior project management role in a business environment, I'd take Hillary.
I'd be severely tempted to take a chance on Obama, but keeping the project team motivated and starry-eyed doesn't get the job done......
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Damian, I was pleased when our mutual Doctor friend finally conceded that Obama was, in fact, our Lord and Saviour.
I'm with Russell and Don. His oratory isn't an appeal to base instincts, but to - as another fancypants, wishy-washy orator put it - the better angels of our nature.
Obama totally touched me in my special place. Politics that engage on a moral, rather than pocketbook, level; an America that gives a shit. Even if Clin-ton can manage the economy better, can create more jobs and provide better healthcare, is that really more valuable than someone who can restore a sense of dignity and direction to the nation?
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is that really more valuable than someone who can restore a sense of dignity and direction to the nation?
That's why I think he'll win - he's become The Person For The Time. Not only the nomination, but he'll wipe McCain in the general. The momentum he has, and he just keeps building up and turning more people on. Turn that onto independents for 6 - 8 months, I think he'll even get a fair few Republicans who won't see much difference between him and McCain. I'm picking 60% of the electoral college.
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or will we realise the only way out is a world government and a reach for the stars...
We'll need a truth machine for that to work...
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The problem with a "truth machine" is that it does not tell you anything very useful. It tells you what the subject *believes* is the truth.
Ask a flying spaghetti monster believer for their version of the truth then it will diverge so much from what most "reasonable" people perceive as reality that one would conclude that they must be lying.
The "truth machine" would not detect that lie.
Or more pragmatically "Are you a terrorist?", "No". This would ring "true" if the person believes they are a freedom fighter.
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John Rogers is cleverer than me, so I'll let him do the "no policy" rebuttal.
Interesting first comment on that post, which includes the factoid that Obama has the same amount of experience as Lincoln did when he ran for president. True, or feel-good myth? I can't be bothered doing the research...
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If I had the 3 remaining viable candidates as applicants for a senior project management role in a business environment, I'd take Hillary.
Me too, but President isn't a project manager. Being inspiring is the major part of the job. It's not like they don't have actual project managers in their employ, any of whom is more qualified than Clinton. That's why I'm always skeptical about the leaders who are presented on account of their other talents, like deep knowledge of economics, or having run successful businesses. Then they start to feel like they're a puppeteer, rather than a spokesperson. They start thinking the whole 'commander in chief' means a lot more than it was intended to.
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