Up Front: Come Out, Come Out, Wherever You Are
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Hear Hear
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I'm never really sure why people need to stay in the closet these days. Is it as imperative as it once was? I don't know. I had gay male friends in the 80's who had been married and had kids before they came out. A bit dishonest, and terribly hurtful all round, I thought at the time. Now with the benefit of a bit of age and experience, I understand that back then it was still something that was frowned on, deeply, and that the charade of marriage and all that comes with it, at least afforded them some acceptance from society. And they got to have kids. Which 20 odd years ago most likely wouldn't happened without entering into that sort of compromise.
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Now with the benefit of a bit of age and experience, I understand that back then it was still something that was frowned on, deeply, and that the charade of marriage and all that comes with it, at least afforded them some acceptance from society.
Indeed. And if they had kids in the 80s, they probably married when homosexuality was still illegal. Gay men in the States are actively encouraged to get married by some religious leaders, because of course if homosexuality is something you do not something you are, then all you need to be saved is just stop doing it.
I knew young gay guys who were out in the 80s, but they were at uni, and in Wellington, which was a completely different environment from the one where I was living. I seriously, shit you not, stayed in because I was genuinely afraid I'd be killed. (Sleeping with a Territorial's girlfriend was possibly an aggravating factor there.)
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I seriously, shit you not, stayed in because I was genuinely afraid I'd be killed.
And how is it now? I appreciate that there is more, well, would you call it acceptance or tolerance? And, of course, I think that the homosexual end of the spectrum is more widely acknowledged than bisexuality. I don't know that people really understand the middle of the sexuality spectrum yet. It's always been my belief that womens' movement within the spectrum is more fluid than mens'. I have a sister in law who, like you, has had women partners in the past, although she is married to a man, now. I don't know that I ever really understood it myself, but I saw a doco on Maori TV as part of the Takataapui series that talked about bisexuality in women. It made it all the more clear to me. I suspect that most people, however, still think it's a case of "having your cake and eating it" as it were. Do you still deal with such prejudice?
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And how is it now? I appreciate that there is more, well, would you call it acceptance or tolerance?
Well, I moved to a bigger city, and I believe that had a more profound effect than the passage of time. My social group has always been completely accepting - by which I mean it's simply not an issue.
However, I'm not out to my family. My brothers would not be pleasant about it.
The flip side of that was encountering prejudice for the first time from the other side, for not being gay enough. Either you're a lesbian and afraid to embrace it, or straight and just looking for attention. I just don't understand why that would matter to anyone else.
It's always been my belief that womens' movement within the spectrum is more fluid than mens'.
That's what 'studies indicate'. With men, homosexuality is twice as common as bisexuality, whereas with women it's the other way around. When viewing sexual material, women seem to be more aroused by the whole scenario depicted than whether the subjects are male or female.
I suspect that most people, however, still think it's a case of "having your cake and eating it" as it were. Do you still deal with such prejudice?
A friend of mine was told by her own mother that she didn't mind if she was gay, but she couldn't be bisexual, because that was 'just greedy'. On the few occasions you see bisexuals depicted, they're almost always shown as promiscuous, untrustworthy, and not interested in real intimacy. But still, I think the 'confused/lying' stereotype is more common.
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On the few occasions you see bisexuals depicted, they're almost always shown as promiscuous, untrustworthy, and not interested in real intimacy.
Unfortunately John Barrowman's Captain Jack hasn't exactly helped on at least some of those prejudices, though long may he carry on...
A bisexual friend once explained to me that he was simply attracted to certain people, rather than men or women - and that makes sense to me.
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As a straight male I have to say that other peoples sexuality while interesting is not something I use to judge people
Although I do struggle with male gays who married so as to appear normal, what does that do to the women they married?
It seems unkind to say the very leastI live and have always lived in a rural setting and it appears that some men don't find marriage something they feel comftable with (they are not drawn to women) so they appear to lead single lives, what they really do is their business...isn't it
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A bisexual friend once explained to me that he was simply attracted to certain people, rather than men or women - and that makes sense to me.
I often wonder how many of us this would be true for if there was no social stigma about any sexual orientation or pressure to label oneself and then stay in that little box.
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So, Steven what are you trying to tell us
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A topical post for me. I have a friend who is currently in the process of coming out as bi - and they're being extremely cautious about who they tell, worrying about the reactions of people who've been their staunch friends for years. I'd assumed it was easier than that in 2008, but clearly we still have a long way to go.
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Unfortunately John Barrowman's Captain Jack hasn't exactly helped on at least some of those prejudices, though long may he carry on...
He is ridiculously nummy. And while this stereotype irritates me, it seems there may be some basis for it.
Several studies comparing bisexuals with hetero or homosexuals have indicated that bisexuals have higher rates of sexual activity, fantasy or erotic interest.
A bisexual friend once explained to me that he was simply attracted to certain people, rather than men or women - and that makes sense to me.
While basically true, I've found it a little less simple than that. I have a strong male type, for instance (dark hair, heavy brow, strong facial features), but apparently no female type at all. And it may be because I don't have a 'potential mates' gender and a 'competition for mates' gender that gender just isn't all that important to me socially.
I would have thought that, being somewhere 'in between', bisexuals would have been of interest to people researching origins of sexual orientation, but Barrowman's otherwise excellent The Making of Me simply never mentioned them.
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I have a friend who is currently in the process of coming out as bi - and they're being extremely cautious about who they tell, worrying about the reactions of people who've been their staunch friends for years. I'd assumed it was easier than that in 2008, but clearly we still have a long way to go.
Eh, sympathies. I had one friend, one from high school, who quite simply never spoke to me again. I guess it's one way of determining who your friends really are.
The actual coming out bit... is incredibly awkward. I mean, it's not the kind of thing that just naturally comes up in conversation. I think most of my friends just found out my osmosis. Though I was outed once during a game of Taboo.
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but she couldn't be bisexual, because that was 'just greedy'.
I wonder if this is more about perceived promiscuity. The belief that if you are bi you have to be shagging multiple partners at the same time (but not in an orgy sense) in order to satisfy your urges. For some being bi means having a series of monogomous relationships with men and women.
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And how is it now?
I suspect it varies from from "not too bad" to "not a good environment at all".
I would imagine, for example, that young people still at school would have to be pretty brave to come out, particularly with some schools. I was really impressed by the two young women who were on TV recently protesting that their school wasn't allowing them to take a same sex partner to their ball.
Some sports clubs, aren't exactly a haven for queer-friendly people either. I could imagine people being out to close friends and family, but not at work and other places, just because people knowing about your sexuality shouldn't give you that much grief.
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I could imagine people being out to close friends and family, but not at work and other places, just because people knowing about your sexuality shouldn't give you that much grief.
My uncle came out a while back, now one of his brothers won't speak to him and even keeps all the children away from him at family gatherings.
Be easier at work where it doesn't (shouldn't) have any impact on how you do your job. -
My uncle came out a while back, now one of his brothers won't speak to him and even keeps all the children away from him at family gatherings.
Be easier at work where it doesn't (shouldn't) have any impact on how you do your job.Yes true, often it will be the other way around.
I suspect 'rejected by family/best friends' stories are the worst to hear.
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I find the whole categorisation of people according to bonking practices very limiting. Like, as soon as "they" decide what category you fit in, that's where you're stuck, along with whatever "they" think that involves and it is now shorthand for your complete personage.
I recently returned to my home town for a birthday party/reunion with old friends, most of whom i hadn't seen for at least a decade or so. I went unaccompanied and pretty much the first thing that people tried to find out about me was whether I was gay, bi, partnered. It was like they couldn't actually deal with me until they had that sussed. Being a contrary sort of person, i of course kept my mouth shut, apart from a "Wouldn't you like to know?" attitude. It's not that my old pals are intolerant or judgmental about such things, it was simply the idea of being defined by that.
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I suspect 'rejected by family/best friends' stories are the worst to hear.
What really gave me the crawls was a woman I knew at Bardic Web, proudly telling me that she and her husband were the only family members who still spoke to his gay brother - because how could they save him if they weren't talking to him?
I'd rather get ignored, thanks.
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From my own experience -
Its…..complicated
Perspective one.
Some years ago now I acted as a chaperone/driver for a lesbian pool team. The team was largely constituted by those who had “retired” from the Greenham Common protest (I was quite young then). At least one of the team was bi and for all but one member of the team this wasn’t a problem. Pool matches were interesting and the team finished mid table for the two years it ran. To my recollection we only had to leave one pub in a hurry. Needless to say everyone deduced that I had to be gay.
There was always something slightly fatalistic and destructive to be seen in the relationships within the team. It took me a while to realise that most of those relationships would have been functional and a lot happier “on another planet” so as to speak. What became clear was despite all the support and love to be shared it only took a couple of bigots to really f**k things up. It was explained to me at the time as the terror of not knowing who you were going to meet- friend or foe. Despite the norm being that life would be okay with most people at worst being cordial or bemused, you could never be sure if you were going to meet a real shithead. Therefore outside of one or two notable spaces you always had to have your guard up. As a psychologist I now understand this issue rather better. I couldn’t say if this is still the case 20 odd years later.
Perspective two.
I have always described myself as sexually ambivalent. It would be unreasonable to suggest that I am bi as I have never had a homosexual relationship. As I have pointed out elsewhere I tend to attract gay admirers with embarrassing ease (perhaps a little less so now I’m older) and have always taken it as a great compliment. It is worth pointing out that I am not that good looking either. I can empathise with the idea of falling for or being infatuated with people rather than genders. Indeed I don’t tend to appraise men or women in a gender typical manner. I used to fall for faces and voices. Why did I never take advantage of my other side ? I think it came down to a complete failure to have a useful relationship with other males at any level. Conversing with women is easy with blokes it is just impossible. I have often wondered whether other “ambivalent” males have the same problem.
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I have always described myself as sexually ambivalent. It would be unreasonable to suggest that I am bi as I have never had a homosexual relationship. ... I can empathise with the idea of falling for or being infatuated with people rather than genders. Indeed I don’t tend to appraise men or women in a gender typical manner. I used to fall for faces and voices.
Ditto. Although I've had close friendships with other women, they've never crossed the physical line. Closer than most relationships with men, except for gay/bi men, who I've been close enough to that I considered marriage with one and fell madly in love with another. I suspect i liked them because of a certain spontaneity, joie de vivre they both had, a willingness to be open and expressive that, sadly, lots of very straight kiwi men don't have, especially the older ones.
Voices - yeah, they are irrationally attractive, or not.
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I should say, I'm not looking to move from having two boxes (gay, straight) to having three or four. Sexuality is a continuum, everyone's somewhere along it, and I'm not really into the whole 'you can't call yourself X because you haven't...'. To me it's much more about attraction than where you have or haven't stuck what.
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What are the reasons for peoples (negative) reactions when they find out someone is gay/bi?
There is the 'it's wrong' when there is a direct conflict with their ideology/worldview - which may not have been examined in any depth by the holder of that ideology
Then there are the cases mentioned above where being bi is seen as 'greedy' or 'can't make up your mind'. Which seems to be another ideology conflict.
So it is just ideology how ever uniformed it is, or is there something more that causes the reactions people have and makes coming out so fraught? -
What are the reasons for peoples (negative) reactions when they find out someone is gay/bi?
I did a wee google and found something really disturbing. It's a very small study so I'd take it with a very large grain of salt but still...
A study that appears to reveal a major cause of homophobia was completed at the University of Georgia in 1996. 3 It involved 64 white men, none of whom had engaged in homosexual acts during their lifetime. Their sexual fantasies involved only women. 35 of them were rated homophobic; 29 non-homophobic...
Each was shown three types of X rated videotapes: heterosexual, lesbian and gay. A plethysmograph measuring device (affectionately called a "peter meter") measured the circumference of their penis as a gauge of sexual arousal.
The two groups exhibited similar arousal when they viewed 4 minute samples taken from one heterosexual and one lesbian movie. But they responded differently to the male homosexual clip:
Degree of Tumescence: Insignificant Moderate Definite
Homophobic men 20% 26% 54%
Non-homophobic men 66% 10% 24%The researchers concluded that these data are consistent with the belief that most homophobic men have repressed homosexual desires.
Whatever it is, it seems to be visceral rather than reasoning, a deep-set genuine disgust that's not open to logic - like other prejudices.
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I can imagine they would have had to pay some of those guys quite a bit of money to get them to participate.
"You want to put a thing around my dick to measure my erection, and make me watch gay porn? But I hate fags!"
"Ooh, Two hundred bucks. Well I guess that's OK then."
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"Ooh, Two hundred bucks. Well I guess that's OK then."
Two hundred bucks and lesbian porn.
Interesting* fact: the plethysmograph was used to stop people dodging the draft by pretending to be gay.
*for very low values of interesting
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