"The Terrorism Files"
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hunting and survival camps + illegal firearms does merit police involvement - using the local Iwi liaison police to bring anyone in to line and out any silliness on the marae. I assure you, Tuhoe leadership would have sorted out any of their own and Tau Iwi who were up to that kind of shit in their rohe.
Do you really think Tuhoe leadership were oblivious to what was going on in their midst? I'd also like to know more about the local Iwi liaison police. Are they a special squad, like the K9 Units, and the AOS?
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And while we're on the Sara Noble late show, the thing I like about Post-Structuralism (David et al) is that IMO it gives us the tools to undo the power of symbols e.g.
skin colour = particular race = particular behaviours, beliefs, aptitudes
tattoo = scary person = danger
feminine = nurturant = stupid
etcI realise these all seem pretty obtuse nowadays, but we do still embue our symbols (i.e. meanings/understandings) of the world with immense power, as if they are real, natural, and inevitable, and so they (the symbols/meanings) are far more powerful (and potentially oppressive) than they ought to be. Modernism/structuralism was all about revealing the laws of nature that supposedly govern us. Postm/s is about seeing how we are now as an iteration of reality beyond which the potential is open and unknown. Hence we take responsibility for the culture we live in, knowing that we make it, and we give respect to all other cultures knowing that their reality is just as "valid" as ours in every way.
At least that's what I think post-structuralism can be!
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http://www.civilrightsdefence.org.nz/
www.gpja.org.nz/
sorry I was being lazy, and I still can't make the stuff work to do links and quotes beautifully and my husband is threatening to give my dinner to the dog, but I know its here somewhere....
Thanks for going to the trouble here Sara. Very interesting stuff. Sorry the dog got your dinner.
To make the links work - firstly I find it easier to open another window with the webpage in it that you are going to link to. Then copy the bits after 'Link:' from the stuff in the left margin.
Then in the other browser copy the address. Then delete the three letters 'url' and paste in the address. Then delete the words 'link text' and type in your own spiffy words and it will come out like
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Kyle, I wasn't talking "for" anyone: I was taking the piss out of your absurd inability to look at the way in which you're looking at things. Eg. I understand what you mean when you say that how Pakeha view them is a concern for Tuhoe, but you're wrong. The concern for Tuhoe in this respect, I think, is that they're surrounded by people who for some reason are disposed to think of them as they apparently do, and it's incomprehensible, sad and infuriating.
Close your eyes, Kyle, and imagine that you find upon opening them that your home has become my-little-pony-land, and you're tongue has just been surgically removed by a five year old child, and however long you stay there you are expected to play horsie all day, and, while you may procreate, your offspring are equally born without tongues, and your five year old captors never grow up. And then imagine the ways in which you might find yourself expressing your intelligence and humanity.
And if you respond by picking pedantic holes in my deliberately ridiculous analogy, I swear, I will send a cyber death ray down to destroy you.
Sara: Interesting project. Um, well, happily I was at high school within the last twenty years and I learned nothing of the treaty.
Off the top of my head I can't help thinking that the general bureaucratisation of "treaty education" has worked against itself. You know, the perception that if you go for a job in Wellington you have to remember some spiel; if you train to be a teacher you need to include this stuff in every essay; resource consent applications need iwi approval (I don't even know if that's true), you know what I mean.
As much as "kiwis" believe in a fair crack of the whatever, they're also deeply resistant to being told what to do, and during the 90s at least treaty stuff became perfunctory and meaningless.
I'll have to think about this some more though.
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Hi ya IO (you know Io is the Maori word for (very loosely) God; more particularly, the great primordial nothingness that being sprang from? Like Wuwei (precursor to Dao) in Chinese. (Sorry.)
I seriously think that if a few weirdos had tacked themselves on to Tame Iti's bush camps and were talking up large about skinning Pakeha, it would be quite possible for tribal elders and/or the younger, more outspoken ideological leaders (coz I think there are both of these in Tuhoe and probably other Iwi) not to know about it. But I think if it looked even a bit scary and the police brought it to their attention they would have "dealt" with it.
I also think that once the police got it all overblown, if they had consulted with the local police and/or Iwi Liaison Unit, they would have talked to the Elders/leaders to get clear about what was happening, and if there was anything scary going on they would have dealt with it.
I think if there was pretty scary stuff going on up there (like people marching round like a mini militia and sounding serious about taking it to the Pakeha, I think the Elders/leaders would find out pretty quickly and would shut it down with a slam.
And I think if there had been really really serious terrorist shit brewing up there, the SG would have allowed charges to be laid under the STA.
My understanding (though piecemeal) is that there are regional Iwi liaison units that have been working on protocols for dealing with a variety of issues specific to policing and Maori. These include things like diversion for family group/marae based hearings, communication protocols, cultural awareness training etc. I think that the Iwi liaison units are supposed to have on-going connections/communications on the ground with local police, particularly in strongly Maori dominated area. My fairly prominent Tuhoe mate says they have a really good relationship with the local coppers who have often called on them (including Tame Iti) to sort out trouble with local youth etc. I understand that (quietly) even they feel affronted by the way this was handled from on high.
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As an aside, does anyone know what happened to the pregnant woman who went in to labour while she was caught in the traffic backlog caused when the hikoi vehicles blocked SH1 on the way in to Wellington? Last thing I heard was that the convoy was travelling at approximately 10 kmh along the urban motorway near the Aotea off-ramp, across all three lanes, while the police were trying to get an ambulance to the woman. She was stuck at the Ngauranga interchange, and the emergency services were saying there was a lot of screaming coming across the phone....
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Bob! Yay! Thanx for the tip. (don't worry I fought her for the left-overs)
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Wow, Creon, your analogy was actually really powerful - I probably read a bit too much SF - but I could see it, and really have a sense how, on a feeling level, it could encapsulate the experience of a colonised culture. Chilling. Reminds me of "The Sparrow" trilogy (or was it only 2 books - whats that? a duology, a binary, a Tarrantinology?). An amazing SF read "about" colonisation and the potential disasters of cultural misunderstanding.
Thanks for the interesting feedback on the research idea. Sadly I think you're spot on about the obstacles, but I do have to believe that mostly it is 2 steps forward and only 1 step back. I will look out for any further thoughts you, or others, might have on this.
Now if I don't get to bed I'm going to be too tired tomorrow to do my reading marathon in the evening, not to mention all the things I'm supposed to do!
Looking forward to the next installments...
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To get really wanky, Sara, modernism was merely a new phase of romanticism and shouldn't be aligned with structuralism, which was, in itself, the real revolution: what's called 'poststructuralism' was, in my view, simply the necessary advancement of that.
And in my happier moments I tend to agree with you about the possibility of new, sign-conscious (if you will) ways of looking at ourselves. This morning, for example, I found myself feeling quite optimistic. But then I forgot the cardinal rule of Public Address (don't read Finn's posts) and got depressed again.
I think Hone Harawera is the living embodiment of sexying the treaty. Quite seriously: his attitude to being an MP has been one of actually demonstrating rangatiratanga in action. And he's pretty goddam sexy.
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The concern for Tuhoe in this respect, I think, is that they're surrounded by people who for some reason are disposed to think of them as they apparently do, and it's incomprehensible, sad and infuriating.
And my point, again, was about if they wanted to change that. If, as you hint at, they're not looking to change that, then my point has no relevance, so why are you ragging on it? Just my opinion, if the Maori world wants to ignore it, up to them.
I went through my activism with the belief that Maori and Pakeha both have things to offer each other in partnership. Maori sovereignty activists that I had involvement with often appreciated that education was a two way street. However you view it and want to do it, up to you.
Though I'm tired and this was never an important discussion and I think I'm done with arguing for the week. So whatever.
Close your eyes, Kyle, and imagine that you find upon opening them that your home has become my-little-pony-land, and you're tongue has just been surgically removed by a five year old child, and however long you stay there you are expected to play horsie all day, and, while you may procreate, your offspring are equally born without tongues, and your five year old captors never grow up. And then imagine the ways in which you might find yourself expressing your intelligence and humanity.
And if you respond by picking pedantic holes in my deliberately ridiculous analogy
I would, but I'm not on whatever drugs that came from. Though I have a daughter, and when she's five, I bet she'd love it if the world was like that for a while.
Though, if the five year olds are 'Pakeha', then your analogy is pretty simplistic. Lots of people have been actively engaging with the Treaty, sovereignty, partnership, and putting that into place in practical ways. I've spent a bunch of time on this forum arguing that stereotypical views of police are completely inaccurate, and the same goes for stereotypical views of Pakeha, and Maori for that matter.
As an example, and a possibly useful piece of information.
Sara there's a community group whose name escapes me right now (no wait I've got it, Project Waitangi, now called Network Waitangi), but who you might already know about. They do treaty education and decolonisation workshops for Pakeha. Their philosophy is that Maori need to take care of their own, it is Pakeha's responsibility to educate Pakeha about the treaty and its history. Here's the Otautahi one: http://www.nwo.org.nz/.
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I think this really all ultimately boils down to a conflict between the core structural concepts of object oriented and aspect oriented thinking patterns. Possibly a functional approach to considering the problem could contribute some real positive results also, but I think in terms of communicating effectively with urban Maori one really needs to keep object encapsulation carefully in mind and ensure proper separation of the model, view and controller. And while object-relational mapping may be the Vietnam of our time, at least by trying to resolve these issues we're stopping it becoming the Guantanamo Bay-meets Dresden of our time!
I'm also a big fan of Neal Stephenson's writing and really think we should try to keep in mind his ideas about "meme hacking" and the metaverse, which could really help us nail this issue down to the brass tacks!
Creon - I'm a big fan, love your work.
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Though, if the five year olds are 'Pakeha', then your analogy is pretty simplistic.
Here comes the death ray.....
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Sorry, no personal attack here: but that seems to some bloodcurdlingly arrogant.
"Yes, white New Zealand, we realise that you think we're basically ungrateful savages because we cling absurdly to our barbaric culture, but we're here to assure you that we too can wear suits on Sunday and debate policy in a reasonable, restrained manner, just as you do in your parliament house. Afterwards, maybe we can take tea together and then Sara can explain poststructuralism to us so we may enter your fine university system and drop French names and feel ever so clever. Thank you for listening, and have a nice day."
Oh Cuthulu's many-angled scrotum... I definitely have a few words to say about that. But not until I've got my calm on...
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And still so few care that the police have criminalised dissent.
It's all cool, because someone out there sounds pretty creepy, context be damned. It's all cool, because you can never be too careful with people like that, and it's better to be safe than sorry. It's all cool, because dissent is a sure sign of insanity anyway, they all think someone's out to get them. It's all cool, because 9/11 is the worst thing to ever happen anywhere and could also happen here tomorrow.
It's all cool, because I'm a little bit scared off the boogeyman.
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Oh chwith…..
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**Kyle, describing Network Waitangi:** "Maori need to take care of their own, it is Pakeha's responsibility to educate Pakeha about the treaty and its history"
y'know, I really can't see how "Maori explain their view of the Treaty to Maori, and Pakeha explain their view to Pakeha" is going to help solve anything.
Extending Creon's analogy a little: Suppose also that, over generations, you notice your children also becoming more mentally immature (like your 5-year-old "masters"). Would that freak you out more, or less, than the original situation? (And back in the real world, what does that imply for the prospects of a shared meeting of minds?)
I realise the analogy was deliberately set up for emotional impact. But I think that may actually be a problem here, as it obscures that both sides are displaying arrogance (albeit in different, and possibly nonequivalent ways: the one by restricting freedom of action [with the situation, rather than the "5-y.o. masters" also restricting freedom of expression?], and the other by labelling the first group mentally subnormal).
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Well, I've got the flu, so I can blame this on the Sudafed ...
Off the top of my head I can't help thinking that the general bureaucratisation of "treaty education" has worked against itself. You know, the perception that if you go for a job in Wellington you have to remember some spiel; if you train to be a teacher you need to include this stuff in every essay; resource consent applications need iwi approval (I don't even know if that's true), you know what I mean.
As much as "kiwis" believe in a fair crack of the whatever, they're also deeply resistant to being told what to do, and during the 90s at least treaty stuff became perfunctory and meaningless.
Yup.
There are still some non-Maori who question how the Treaty of Waitangi can be 'a living document'. It's absurd - imagine if all written agreements/contracts were 'living documents'? Every new generation would be in court forever re-arguing what the original agreement meant.
But somehow (Labour PC liberalism?) the Treaty is now the defining document of our nation and it is a living document which means it can't be defined strictly by the actual wording of the document (why, even the wording/meaning of the document is different depending on which version [English or Maori] you read) so instead the Treaty will be defined by what the politics of the day determine it to mean.
The good news is that the #2 guiding principle of our education curriculum will be the TOW, meaning children of all races (because we are all one nation afterall, albeit two peoples) will learn that to be a New Zealander one must accept Maori culture, because they were here first, y'know? And if you don't like it then you can go back to England or China or wherever your people came from because you can. But Maori don't have that option, if they don't like it they can't leave because they have no where to go (except to Sydney or Brisbane), they are from this land.
So whilst we are taught that Maui fished Aotearoa out of the sea (but also taught that that is just a delightful myth), we are also taught that Taniwha are real and we must spend a great deal of money so that local Iwi can perform a ceremony to remove them from local waterways adjascent to a new bypass. And whilst we are taught that NZ is a secular state we shall not open a new Govt Dept building/office/lobby without having a Maori prayer or blessing performed first (cue rebuttal citing the Christian prayer opening each Parliamentary session). And whilst we are taught that the cultural practice by some African tribes to remove the clitoris' of teenage girls is wrong (cue side argument about Western practice of male circumcision), we are taught that the cultural practice of Maori in insisting that women sit at the back and not speak until it is their turn is not wrong.
And whilst we may feel that it conflicts with our previously held belief that 'Girls Can Do Anything' now is not the time to argue because it is not for us (non-Maori) to argue the rights and wrongs of Maori culture (but you can say what you like about Scientology cos we all agree they're nutters, I mean really... Thetans, evil spirits dropped into volcanoes ...?!). Besides, Maori women will fight that battle themselves, on the Marae, and change will come when Maori decide it is appropriate (cue anecdotes of staunch Wahine who through the ages have proven themselves not to be second class citizens; much like the proud Muslim women who wear the Burqua and proudly celebrate their faith by walking two steps behind their husband - or any man for that matter).
I could go on but I won't. The caveat to my statement 'the Treaty will be defined by what the politics of the day determine it to mean' is that there is a ratchet clause. Meaning Maori will never accept a reduction in whatever they have received thus far under TOW (cue argument that I am being paternalistic, that Maori have 'received' nothing, only got what is rightfully theirs as per the Treaty). Which means if (say) a future National government tries to roll back (clawback?) some of the provisions of what the Treaty has come to mean in modern times then there will be more trouble. Much more. Trouble trouble trouble.
At which point I shall stay indoors with the curtains closed, and watch My Little Pony videos all day.
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And still so few care that the police have criminalised dissent.
...which takes us all the way back to plain ol' making shit up.
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Hot ginger tea with honey.
You have a lot of good points which deserve further attention. I'll enjoy teasing out some of the threads later on.
The Vietnam videos are chilling (for want of pages and pages of better words). Presumably they are meant to scare us into recognition of what napalm does in the wrong hands.
I don't know the chemistry or anything, but didn't Buchanan say that at least the ingredients of napalm are common farming stuff?
Also, the evidence in the public arena re napalm thus far is that someone said they'd bring some next time... end of story.
Lets try to keep it real.
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To continue with overblown metaphors - shit, now I've started drinking in the morning!
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I love Sara's analyses. Seeing both sides is a beautiful thing.
And I dimly realise how the law operates and police wanted to gather evidence etc But yesterday police stopped a bunch of school-kids who wanted to cause mayhem on their last day at school.
If police had acted in a similar way with the Rama group,this national scandal might have been nipped in the bud.
My son wants to move back to NZ as a better place to be than London but his British fiance might look askance at NZ now!
And what about John Key going to Ruatoki AFTER the police heard about the threat? Doesn't that put the silly eejits' talk in a different light.
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Sara:
Okay, so perhaps all this distaste about the anger expressed on the Hikoi is just a little ethnocentric, not to mention some of the interpretations of other responses such as Nanaia Mahuta’s. Correct me if I’m wrong because I wasn’t there, nor have I seen specific coverage of her crying, but there are lots and lots of reasons that she might have cried other than that she was scared of the nasty, noisy protesters.
I think it is likely that she would have had feelings of grief over the terrible things that happened at Ruatoki, grief at the idea that Maori-Government/Police relations had sustained real damage, and even possibly some grief and/or shame that she, as a member of government, has presided over this – even if from a somewhat marginalised position within government.Or, more likely, according to reports like this, because she was abused, shouted down and called a traitor:
The warm reaction to Dr Sharples contrasted sharply with the icy reception for Labour's Nanaia Mahuta and Maori Affairs Minister Parekura Horomia. Both spoke briefly to the crowd in Maori, but much of what they said was drowned out by abuse.
One heckler told Mr Horomia to speak up, because "your people won't listen to you", while Ms Mahuta endured chants of "traitor" through most of her brief address.
I think it was Donna-Marie Lever who said that Parekura Horomia stepped up after Nanaia retreated "almost in tears". I'm no expert, but I do think that calling Bob Mahuta's daughter a "traitor" won't go down well with many Tainui.
Your hopeful gloss on what happened just seems to me to yet another one of the rationalisations pouring out of this thread. I find it a bit frustrating.
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WH,
Meaning Maori will never accept a reduction in whatever they have received thus far under TOW (cue argument that I am being paternalistic, that Maori have 'received' nothing, only got what is rightfully theirs as per the Treaty). Which means if (say) a future National government tries to roll back (clawback?) some of the provisions of what the Treaty has come to mean in modern times then there will be more trouble. Much more. Trouble trouble trouble.
who knows. its even conceivable that malcontent weirdos might run around in the woods with guns, and spouting post-structuralist and revolutionary gibberish. then where would we be.
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I think this really all ultimately boils down to a conflict between the core structural concepts of object oriented and aspect oriented thinking patterns. Possibly a functional approach to considering the problem could contribute some real positive results also, but I think in terms of communicating effectively with urban Maori one really needs to keep object encapsulation carefully in mind and ensure proper separation of the model, view and controller.
Does that run on Linux?
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I don't know the chemistry or anything, but didn't Buchanan say that at least the ingredients of napalm are common farming stuff?
Starting in the early 1990s, various websites including The Anarchist Cookbook advertised recipes for homemade napalm. These recipes were predominantly equal parts gasoline and styrofoam.
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NapalmWhich doesn't sound like its hard to make eh? Actually, come to think of it, im pretty sure we were investigating a napalm-like method to get rid of some gorse on our farm back in the day.
Making Napalm is all well and good, but from what I understand without an effective delivery mechanism not massively useful.
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