"The Terrorism Files"
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I notice this morning that a complaint has been filed against the Dom Post for contempt of court.
If any lawyers are still reading, I just had a look at part 11a of the Crimes Act which deals with interception evidence and it includes:
- section 312J which requires the destruction of intercept evidence when charges are no longer being proceeded with - I'm not sure if this applies to terrorism offences, though.
- section 312K prohibits the disclosure of intercept evidence outside a person's official duty. This only carries a $500 fine but it certainly appears to have been breached in this case.
I wonder if charges could be brought under 312K (and indeed, if the police have failed in their duty under 312J to call in and destroy the intercepts).
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kowhai - I'd be keen. If I'm missing something then I'd like to have that conversation, I'm not quite the middle-aged university-educated cracker that Dubmugga has decided I am. If you want to take any of it offline if we're afraid of clogging up the thread then [firstname].[lastname]@gmail.com should set you straight for emailing me...
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Finn - your robbing haka of meaning. It is a cultural construct that the police are familiar with & any contact is understood to have crossed a line. I did see evidence of marshalling of the youth who got in the face of the cops to bring him back.
To quibble over museum or rugby stadium is still to remove it from any meaning. IMHO ka mate is a story of a coward & Kapa o Pango or any other purpose written haka is better.Tainui will be interesting to watch if Nanaia Mahuta can hang on in there. It's gotta be short odds on a Maori clean sweep for the Maori seats.
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I posted a reply to you binary heart but it the system went down for some reason!
Anyway Kiaora for your reply, I appreciate hearing info from the other side. Although Lenka Rochford and Sam Buchanan have been some of the more successful media liasions, demonstrators over the past month have been unravelling their good work with every placard that says “Activism not Terrorism” and with every young chap in an orange jumpsuit referencing Guantanamo bay. I'm afraid the 128 open day did not affect the risk of the general public thinking of the activists as over reacting, mis-contextualising terrorists. I can see how the media can turn people to think of activism as a potential terrorism.
Why is it so disturbing to see the Tuhoe crew using their culture to express their (in my view righteous) feelings of unhappiness, anger and determination.
Can you understand how the haka can be primarily seen as a negative thing in this context? Nobody likes to be intimidated - I don't know about you but it sets my reptilian brain off! Agreed, NZ state loves to use haka at sporting and ceremonial events. As a Maori and New Zealand woman I will stand behind it as part of my cultural heritage. But soon as the haka is dressed with real anger and frustration and no clear direction of this anger – it becomes a negative, confusing & unhappy situation imposed on the public. Everyone loves sex, but as soon as anger is involved it becomes rape. A terrible analogy I know, but someones gotta do it.
I would ask anyone who say honestly why they felt intimidated by it. I think the answer would reflect more on the person than the nature of the march.
I saw the hikoi and the fleet of cars where all I could see were camo, balaclava, black and red as well as angry shouting at the public. It felt as though the Tuhoe fleet were ready for war, and this had my reptilian brain deciding whether I should fight or run. Yes this reaction reflects on me as a person because I am human.
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As portrayed in the TV pictures, the hikoi participants looked like a rabble. If they were looking to win public support for their grievances, it backfired pretty badly.
Well, sure. Just as I think it was perfectly legitimate to document every anti-Semitic, hate-mongering (but highly photogenic) fucktard who attached themselves to anti-Iraq War protests. All the same, I don't think it would be fair to tar everyone who opposed the War with the same toxic brush, do you?
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Ahem, he was only asked about TSA charges for a reason. There were only Arms Act and TSA charges going, and Arms Act charges aren't part of what the Attorney-General (least we forget) delegated to the SG. The SG deciding the accused shouldn't be charged with TSA charges does mean he thinks they should (or perhaps could would be better) be charged under the Arms Act. There is no remit for him to come up with other charges.
I don't disagree with that. What Sara originally said was:
the Solicitor General - highest legal prosecutor in the country - has concluded - after reading a great deal more than the single affidavit upon which the Dominion bases its report - decided that the evidence collected against these 16 at a cost of over $8 million (according to the police) is insufficient for them to face anything more than illegal possession of firearms charges
That's simply not true. The Solicitor General made no statements at all about whether the evidence was enough for Arms Act charges, or any other charges. He simply declined to pursue charges under the TSA. He was not asked about Arms Act charges, or charges under any other act. So statements about the evidence being insufficent for them to face anything other than TSA charges, are just putting words in his mouth. We have no idea what his opinion is on the Arms Act charges, or any other charges that could have, but aren't being brought against the accused.
The SG's statements were very significant in a number of ways. Most importantly because the accused will not face charges under the TSA, but also because he made comments about the quality of that law. We don't need to add to their significance by attributing things to him that he clearly did not say.
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"Everyone loves sex, but as soon as anger is involved it becomes rape. A terrible analogy I know, but someones gotta do it."
And a wrong one - Consent would be the issue at hand rather than an emotion.
Which leads into the haka had a consent to go forward & it was an expression of many things including the emotion anger.
Lets not outlaw emotion just yet.
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It's pretty precious to blame the media for the coverage of the Hikoi - if you give them a choice between showing 1450 people marching peacefully and 50 jackasses dressed as terrorists
What would you suggest the 1450 should have done about the 50?
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And perhaps its just me, but I find a football match a very strange "context" for any haka - especially if you know a bit about the historical context and meaning of Ka Mate.
I guess it is kinda strange when you see the All Blacks spooking the opposition by saying they're stuck down a hole contemplating their imminent death.
But it is 2007... we're all about growth, or in this post-modern day, recontextualisation. If we're not growing we're dying!
PS no need to retort, I'm just talking more shit.
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It's pretty precious to blame the media for the coverage of the Hikoi
Well, who do you 'blame'? It's not as if there's no editorial judgment involved, and I'd respectfully suggest if you smuggled a camera into the Press Gallery Christmas party you could paint a vastly entertaining, but ever so slightly misleading, picture of the media as a pack of drunken, bitchy priapic lunatics. Whether or not that's a bad thing, I'm not so sure. :)
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The haka yesterday had a true purpose of expressing the hurt & anger Tuhoe feel at what the Police Commissioner accepts was wrong.
I'm sure it did. And I'm sure that all the people involved in doing it, and most if not all of the other people on the protest were 100% behind it and put everything into it. And I'm sure the police coped with it fine, it would have been a little intimidating, but they're big boys and girls and they can take action if anyone crosses the line.
All of those things won't change how it's perceived by the public when they watch it on TV. If public perception is what Tuhoe were working on, then I don't think it would have grabbed the middle ground and convinced people of any of their arguments.
If I was to summarise the perception that it carried in one line, it'd be "police restraint in the face of Tuhoe intimidation". I can't imagine that's what Tuhoe wanted to get across yesterday. Surely the opposite is what they've been saying.
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Can anyone pin this down with the evidence? That 60 houses were searched nationwide but of the 16 arrested only 3 were Tuhoe and only 3 others Maori.
The number of maori arrested attributed to a Herald post yesterday that doesn't seem to be online anymore and a clip of Parekura Horomia at the hikoi on One news last night.
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Well, sure. Just as I think it was perfectly legitimate to document every anti-Semitic, hate-mongering (but highly photogenic) fucktard who attached themselves to anti-Iraq War protests. All the same, I don't think it would be fair to tar everyone who opposed the War with the same toxic brush, do you?
I wasn't doing that, just observing that it wasn't a great look. Especially compared to the last big hikoi, which did win public sympathy.
Given Sophie's experience as a sympathetic observer, it wasn't too flash on the ground either.
And I'm serious about the Tainui thing. Tame Iti has already ruffled a few feathers with his letter to the Tuwharetoa Maori King, and reducing Sir Robert Mahuta's daughter to tears won't go down too well with another powerful iwi. Ithink the Tuhoe leadership might get uncomfortable with this.
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Is it because Winstons out of the Country that Helen feels the need to take his place or has she already abdecated?
"I don't know what the lawful route for that would be and in my position I have to advise people to act lawfully." -
PS no need to retort, I'm just talking more shit.
Ah, bring it on - shit makes the flowers grow. :) I frequently sing 'Bread and Roses' in the shower, despite not being a striking Massachusetts textile worker c. 1912. And don't forget, Sophie, I pass most of my day thoroughly bewitched, bothered and bewildered by the human race and all its works.
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The were some bag pipes blasting down on Lampton key a week of two ago. That's intimidating. I don't know why the Irish don't bring them out more often.
Scottish. The Irish have different pipes.
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I wasn't doing that, just observing that it wasn't a great look. Especially compared to the last big hikoi, which did win public sympathy.
No you weren't. Just making the point, and I think it's a fair one, that you can frame any protest - hell, any mass gathering - to make the whole look like a pack of loons. OTOH, I am paying attention to folks here who were on the ground, and even though sympathetic where not impressed.
And I'm serious about the Tainui thing. Tame Iti has already ruffled a few feathers with his letter to the Tuwharetoa Maori King, and reducing Sir Robert Mahuta's daughter to tears won't go down too well with another powerful iwi. Ithink the Tuhoe leadership might get uncomfortable with this.
Sure - and I don't really give a shit about who Nanaia Mauta's father is, or her connections with the Kingitanga. She is genuinely a bloody nice woman, a thoughtful and effective MP (as opposed to a grandstanding windbag with an engorged sense of entitlement a la Shane Jones), and about the only member of Labour's Maori caucus I have any time whatsoever for. In short, the kind of ally you actually want to have inside the tent.
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Craig can you please stand for something. I want to vote for you ; )
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__It's pretty precious to blame the media for the coverage of the Hikoi - if you give them a choice between showing 1450 people marching peacefully and 50 jackasses dressed as terrorists__
What would you suggest the 1450 should have done about the 50?
I guess slowly and patiently explaining to them that dressing up as terrorists is not a great way to convince people you're not a terrorist is too obvious a place to start.
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I'd respectfully suggest if you smuggled a camera into the Press Gallery Christmas party you could paint a vastly entertaining, but ever so slightly misleading, picture of the media as a pack of drunken, bitchy priapic lunatics.
I've only been to a couple of gallery functions (including one where Dame Silvia threw us all out of Government House at about 9:30 PM) but I think you'd be disappointed. If you smuggled a camera into the beehive annex I think you'd mostly just get a picture of a bunch of people who work long days and then go home to their kids.
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Ah, bring it on - shit makes the flowers grow. :)
If shit makes the flowers grow, the world must be a flower bed! Bread and Roses? I'm sure if you wanted to be a striking Massachusetts textile worker c 1912, you could, thanks to the marvel that is the internet.
Amen to humans being total utter weirdo's.
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</aside>
Overall, the mainstream media are part of the evil overbearing hegemonic power structure and should not be associated with, end of story.
The MSM can be divided into two distinct camps:
1] Those already owned by Rupert Murdoch
2] Those yet to be owned by Rupert Murdoch</tangent>
What a pity Musarif wasn't more accommodating .... -
As for the claim made here that everyone was wearing balaclavas I would estimate there were about 40-50 masked up.
The front of the march was brash, exuberant, and at times angry
Not the same, but this reminds me of the Springbok Anti-Tour protests. The MSM of the day (I was going to say 'Middle NZ' but many of the middles class were in the marches) kept asking "Why are they [the protestors] wearing Crash Helmets? Do they want a confrontation with the Police?"
The answer was "no, but those batons hurt when they hit your head..." My point (ahem) is that there is always a bit of theatre involved (possibly in both senses of the word) when getting dressed for a protest march - especially from the young 'uns. Better they be dressed up than 'tooled up'. (Altho' some of those Taiaha were getting dangerously close to the latter)
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I guess slowly and patiently explaining to them that dressing up as terrorists is not a great way to convince people you're not a terrorist is too obvious a place to start.
Not really an option once they'd already arrived in Wellington, and for anyone in a position to discuss it with them beforehand, what if they'd refused to listen and just insisted that nobody can tell them how to dress?
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