"The Terrorism Files"
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It's not of course possible that there's one or two police officers who are for peace, or green themselves, who might find the unjustified linking together of the 'pacifists and environmentalists' with the 'really dangerous people', y'know, immoral and illegal.
Funnily enough, I know/knew an ex-cop and she probably would be of the sort who'd have thought so. She left the force because lesbians weren't made welcome there and went on to do a Masters on why women don't last that long in the force. There's a collective culture that tends to, as Meurant wrote, enforce an understanding that it's "play along or shut up/get out."
There's been some interesting work lately on the dynamics of group psychology. Ironically, some of it's been related to finding out what makes a terrorist, but it also applies in a more positive way to sports teams, musicians and so on.
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A S,
OK, but it's "implicit" and that's enough, isn't it? You're happy with implications. It's suggested, so don't hide behind pedantry. Your quote marks around activists as they were only pretending, the use of the word "play" and saying that they don't own their own shit all serve to reinforce the impression of triviality and insincerity in their motivations.
Sure, you did not say "middle class kids", but you clearly constructed your description to convey a definite impression. I call that a suggestion.
In short. BS. it's not implicit. its not a suggestion. You are making things up to suit your perspective. Anyone of any age can play at something, don't be so arrogant to assume that only the young have ideals. I've been more honest than most on these issues, I've stated where I don't know, and I've also been clear when I'm making up a hypothesis.
I suggest you lose the chip off your shoulder and stop pretending that world is against you.
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I/S is right.
The Dom Post has published the details without attribution so it could affect the whole 17.
They did so for some sort of greater public interest. If anything in the wad could help with determining the accused's intentions then it's public disclosure could see it ruled inadmissable in the firearms case against any of them.
Surely the public good would be better served by a proper fair trial and not this trial by blog and talkback moan. And, if in the fullness of time there exists a possibility to nail these guys on a larger charge then tell me where you're going to find 12 citizens fair and true.
If they are terrorists then the media is helping them evade the consequences. And while I understand part of the Dom Post's motivation of the higher role of media in keeping the world honest. I am wary that neither they or any other media that runs with it understands the full implications of the legal case.
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And I'm sure that that is just what some in the police force are counting on by roping in the pacifists and environmentalists with the really dangerous people.
There is intercept and photographic evidence linking some of the activist people with the camps and, in at least one one case, with Whiri Kemara's weapons purchases. That's from a couple of sources, not including cops.
I hope I didn't just get myself in trouble with the SG there, but I don't think the links are entirely arbitrary. On the other hand, I do get the impression that some of the 17 were guilty of no more than an association with others, and that there is an element of the corruption of innocents.
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AS, you are simply repeating yourself. "It's not, it's not..."
Stating that because you haven't seen an explicit repudiation of violence that it's scary that activists must therefore implicitly support terrorism, that you don't give a damn about their point of view or experience and yet you still view them as insincere and make other insinuations. You have said quite clearly that you know that they're gutless and are only "playing". You state these as certainties, yet you have no way of knowing who they are or why they act as you have perceived them to act and you say that you have no interest in considering what they may be thinking.
And that's honesty?
I do not "arrogantly" assume that only the young have ideals.
Yes, I am angry, because people I know are being smeared through insinuations and leaks and they do not have the pulpit of the press to fight back.
Do I think that the world is against me? No. That's hyperbole, or "making shit up".
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I do get the impression that some of the 17 were guilty of no more than an association with others
And that really is what trial by media does. The strategy by the various activist groups may well change now that the leaks have occurred. I believe that it's already been said somwhere...
Another of the reasons why some/most groups have been largely silent on the specific accusations/insinuations of terrorism was an appreciation of the practical utility of the supression of sub judice evidence and the avoidance of making any statement that might be prejudicial to a fair trial.
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WH,
I don't see these arrests in especially apocalyptic terms, and I'm reluctant to draw too many conclusions from it. It seems clear that some of those involved were fundamentally misguided and I'm glad they were stopped, but that's about as worked up as I can get. The quotes I saw, if serious, were made by potentially dangerous people who had long since forgotten what is really important in life. I feel a little angry but in mostly sad about that.
I don't necessarily see this case as evidence of a new race relations crisis, or as evidence of a threat to our civil liberties from national security legislation, or as evidence that the activist community is a source of danger, notwithstanding that worthwhile things could (arguably?) be said about these topics independently.
This case shouldn't be about making out or breaking up a pre-existing narrative or worldview, as it appears to be for the usual suspects, no play on words intended.
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And from Tim Selwyn (who was a dick, but didn't deserve to go to jail for sedition), we have this lovely bit: they're all roleplayers
Having read the leaked allegations I find them to be indicative of nothing more than role-playing. Role-playing by grown men with firearms - rather than by man-children in homemade knight's armour. Role-playing by angry men embittered by a regime that has harassed them - rather than by frustrated geeks who can't get dates. Role-playing by a group of eclectic opinionated, radical, loners who lust for the company of similar minds to fuel their fantasies - rather than... well, yes... role-players.
Ignoring the nasty streak of bigotry there, I can only say that these aren't the sort of role-playing games I or my many gamer friends play.
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dubmugga
If you're going to critique a comment, at least try to include the whole of it, rather than selectively quoting out of context.
You seem to indicate your respect from someone who has quite probably shafted his community in terms of resources, assistance and any chance of getting ahead, because of his idiocy. Are you really saying that?!
If you were misquoting someone else to talk about a comment I made earlier about stereotypes, then I hate to disillusion you, you are entirely wrong on every count.
Maybe you should take a deep breath before posting sometimes.
;)
*deep breath*
haha selectively quoting out of context and try to include the whole of it. That is so rich. Did you not read the sensationalist quotes which triggered this round of shit talk ???
Thanx for the advice but I just think I'll carry on my merry way of quoting and posting if thats ok with you.
Incidentally how do you think Tuhoe will get shafted by this ??? What exactly is it you think they need to get ahead ???... Maybe some airtime for legit grievances which they will now get ???
Why should Tame's community be held accountable for what you purport to be entirely the actions of one man ??? Is that fair ???
...and don't worry about hating to disillusion me I've been disillusioned for quite some time now.
*sigh*
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There is intercept and photographic evidence linking some of the activist people with the camps and, in at least one one case, with Whiri Kemara's weapons purchases.
Goodness. One of the TV channels (I was flipping between them and can't remember which) pretty clearly identified who the person trying to buy a pistol and silencer was. The person is an activist and one of the pacifists whose supporters insisted 'would never have held a gun in their life'. How interesting.
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Just while we're on the WTF-are-they-thinking front...
"No, I'm teaming up with the Maoris, we have to ... I'll come and see ya, I can't f...... take the white man on without the c...s ... I'm declaring war on this country."
I'm assuming that's Jamie Lockett. But... uh... am I reading that wrong or does that quote have him calling Maori "cunts", and strongly imply that he'd only ally himself with them because it's the only way to "take on the white man"?
If I was Maori I don't think I'd be protesting about this guy being arrested.
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Another of the reasons why some/most groups have been largely silent on the specific accusations/insinuations of terrorism was an appreciation of the practical utility of the supression of sub judice evidence and the avoidance of making any statement that might be prejudicial to a fair trial.
Of course. But I think what AS was getting at was that it was an appropriate time to repudiate violence as a political tool, and people seemed a bit reticent about doing so.
I've actually been a bit shocked at the state of some of the people posting to Indymedia, if that's a measure of sentiment. Some of them have come across as (as a friend of mine put it) "whiny emos", and more than a couple are just outright crazy people (I keep feeling like I'm describing Kiwiblog on a bad day here).
I've found the vicious lashing out at Bomber and anyone who wasn't 100% down with the cause pretty unappealing too. That kind of thing is one of the reasons I've always been wary about indentifying with some concept called "The Left".
Anyway, Kracklite, thanks for coming by. I think you've been a valuable correspondent. And not at all emo ...
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I've actually been a bit shocked at the state of some of the people posting to Indymedia
I must admit that I have long, close contacts with some individuals, not involvment in organised groups (I'm too bougeois) - I'm motivated by those friendships and that's why I've been offended by the insunuations that have been flying. I avoid the extremists on both sides, so I've not been exposed to what goes on in Indymedia - like Craig, I squirm often.
As you might guess from my nom de plume, I'm an overweight paper architect and academic with an admiration for Boullee and a tendency towards carnivorism - not really the Indy sort.
Anyway, Kracklite, thanks for coming by. I think you've been a valuable correspondent. And not at all emo ...
Thanks. Actually, I've always thought that goths had more class than emos - more sensuality, a more refined exuberance.
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As a woman I feel a little intimidated by this mostly male thread, but I just had to pipe up when I read of Kracklites anger...
Yes, I am angry, because people I know are being smeared through insinuations and leaks and they do not have the pulpit of the press to fight back.
I went along to the first 128 Abel Smith meeting a day after the arrests, just to observe. A reporter and camera man from TV3 were waiting outside for a good half of the meeting.
Obviously the first item on the agenda was: How To Deal With the Media. How did they deal with it? They didn't. Instead of giving a statement of position to the TV3 blokes, they close the curtains, raise concern about the morality of mainstream media and give up on it altogether; rather, turning to protests and activism on MP's offices to "spread their message".
My heart just sank. Like, to the depths of my bowels. I didn't need a fortune teller to tell me that these guys were going to have issues with their public image.
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A S,
Incidentally how do you think Tuhoe will get shafted by this ??? What exactly is it you think they need to get ahead ???... Maybe some airtime for legit grievances which they will now get ???
I've already suggested why I think it won't do the people in that area much good. In summary:
We're coming into an election year. In election years, government agencies get extremely risk averse. Accusations of dodgy goings on = risk. Risk for government agencies means spending your money somewhere, lest you end up funding someone who did something silly.
The wider community will be the ones who miss out, and it won't just be for the short term either. Talk to Maori in taranaki about what happened to social spending on Maori after Tariana split from labour, they are still copping it to a large extent.
Also, earlier reports talked about trying to get some local industry going. How willing do you think prospective employers are going to be to go there now? I suspect not very.
Just about every hapu or iwi in the country has legit grievances, they tend to use less inflammatory channels to air them. Can anyone genuinely say they think this sort of stuff will benefit Tuhoe aspirations in the long run? I very much doubt it myself.
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My heart just sank. Like, to the depths of my bowels. I didn't need a fortune teller to tell me that these guys were going to have issues with their public image.
I'm afraid so. Unfortunately, as a correspondent observed earlier on (sorry, I forget who), a lot are cynical about how their stories end up being packaged in the media, no matter what they have to say.
Admittedly I avoid demos myself - I have a horror of crowds - but I've seen plenty of news reports of demos and then heard the first-hand accounts and seen the bruises and found little correspondence between the TV and newspaper version and what I see and hear.
Certainly they have an all to narrow view of how to engage with the media and they are not at all organised as an overall community of activists to that they can have an effective media strategy.
As for John Minto, well I'm glad to say that I've never had the misfortune of meeting him.
Anyway, I've long given up on broadcast TV news anyway. I've had warnings about my blood pressure, and my liver.
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"No, I'm teaming up with the Maoris, we have to ... I'll come and see ya, I can't f...... take the white man on without the c...s ... I'm declaring war on this country."
I'm assuming that's Jamie Lockett. But... uh... am I reading that wrong or does that quote have him calling Maori "cunts"
Yeah, you read that wrong.
"c...s ... " stands for cock suckers. (Obviously not talking 'bout Tama Iti then, eh?) -
I've found the vicious lashing out at Bomber and anyone who wasn't 100% down with the cause pretty unappealing too. That kind of thing is one of the reasons I've always been wary about indentifying with some concept called "The Left".
Yeah, I feel much the same about "The Right" - and really do have to sit down one day, and write that essay about politics as secular religion, and why its a very, very bad idea. Seriously, there's something disturbingly cultic about people who let ideology act as a substitute for thought; who neatly divide the world into True Believers, Infidels and Heretics; and feel a deep and abiding contempt for the world most of us just try and muddle through, in all it's daunting complexity and frustrations.
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A S,
So what were dealing with is bad communication. Tuhoe didn't do the surveillance or publish it in the paper. My understanding is that Tuhoe led the hikoi protesting inappropriate police conduct during there raids in Ruatoki. Two different items
Essentially yes, two different issues. But the vast majority of the population won't see it that way will they?
Sadly, being in the right of the argument matters for stuff all, they needed to think more carefully about how it would be linked by the media and in the public consciousness. They would have been much better off to have wheeled out a couple of kaumatua who could have played elder statesmen and done a much better job of registering their concerns around police conduct.
You don't have to be a PR wizz, you just have to be a suspicious bastard where the media are concerned. A little cynicism about how they would be portrayed in the media would have gone an awful long way in preventing them being cast in the light they have been.
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I am not sure whether these revelations leaves us less confused or more confused but I think the news footage on ONE News this evening probably did much to inflame passions--all those posturing, headscarf-wrapped males acting out as if they were in the Gaza Strip!
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Craig wrote:
Seriously, there's something disturbingly cultic about people who let ideology act as a substitute for thought; who neatly divide the world into True Believers, Infidels and Heretics; and feel a deep and abiding contempt for the world most of us just try and muddle through, in all it's daunting complexity and frustrations.
Cultic, yep.
Biggest problem I have (well, second biggest, nubmer one is the narrow intolerance invovled...I'm pretty conservative myself but most of my friends are on the Left and most of the time this isn't an issue)... where was I?...yeah, sorry.. first equal problem I have with it is it encourages lazy thinking. The stuff you don't understand you can write off with some ideological explanation.
It's a secular version of the 'God of the Gaps' approach to religion.
Apologies for rambling nature of cooments. Just been to one of those business sector drinkypoos Deborah Hill Cone wrote about last week in the Herald.
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Whew! At least we probably all agree on this one.
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I'd take a lot of the pants-wetting about the subversion of the judicial process involved in leaking this information more seriously if it came from people who had offered equal condemnation of people who were demanding politicians over-ride the courts by forcing the release of the accused, filling the airwaves and appers with claims that no-one involved would hurt a fly, and so on, all of which is at least as prejudicial to the chance of getting a fair trial in front of a jury.
As is, it seems like most of the fury is rank hypocrisy from people who were happy to play trial-by-media when it was running their way, and are now dreadfully upset at information not so favourable to "the cause". And, for example, smearing the police as guilty of leaking (no actual evidence; so much for respect for the rule of law) while they do so.
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If insider outsider is still reading...
There's always going to be inconvenience to innocents when the AOS get called out - most don't whine about it and ask for counselling.
One thing that is coming out (John Cambell who has the same data that the DomPost published made this point) is that we are talking about a very small group of people.
I am not condemning the police, but they do have a prima facie case to answer regarding taking a whole community hostage for a day, detaining and photographing people at gun point, assault and unlawful detention.
I stress that I am not condemning them, just pointing out that on the face of it they have been going gung-ho over the top with guns and power. And I hope that in a country like ours they will be held to account if they have abused their power and status.
most don't whine about it and ask for counselling
Is there any need to be quite so patronising about these people? Have you ever experienced an armed police dawn raid on your home? Have you had to watch your children terrorised by armed masked men? I have experienced elements of that, never the whole shebang, and that was quite enough.
Perhaps the behaviour of the police was justified. But I expect them to be held to a high standard - they have a high status and a lot of power.
And on the information released we have more reason to condemn the police than the activist community.
And lastly. Anybody who has spent any time around the activist community has heard this sort "kill a politician" B.S. talk. It would be good to put it in context. But who ever leaked this, and whoever decided what to publish in the DomPost have denied us any context. I wonder why?
I will be interested to see if the arms charges turn up any bombs or napalm. I hope not.
peace
Worik -
Thanks. Actually, I've always thought that goths had more class than emos - more sensuality, a more refined exuberance.
You're just old.
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