Speaker: Towards a realistic drug policy
385 Responses
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Page bookmarked. Thanks v. much Michael Savidge.
3410: none of the ten had been mentally unwell - that their families or friends observed - before smoking cannabis*. 3 of them came from the area I've made my home in, and the others I knew in the Greymouth-to-Punakaiki area.
Edit: before it was realised they were smoking cannabis, and subsequently became seriously ill.
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before it was realised they were smoking cannabis, and subsequently became seriously ill.
Personally, I feel the drug is any easy scapegoat. Sure drugs can dishevel your consciousness, memory, mental faculties. And you can choose to subsequently reorganize your consciousness, memories and mental faculties. to allow things to remain in a state of disarray is a personal choice. If you throw a party for the neighbourhood and don't clean up afterwards and then throw another, your house is going to get fucked up, fast.
I find the mind can be managed in a similar way. The illusion is that drugs cause the derangement. Rather than taking care with recovery times, frequency of use, and even more so just sourcing enough salt grains to self-administer with the wondrous and sometimes paranoid fabrications of the imagination. Along the lines of what 3410 said.
Categorically dismissing the mind as some pitiful little organ that can get permanently fucked up so easily by chemicals (especially THC ffs) does nothing to empower us into the reality that the mind is a powerful, versatile tool with the capacity to maintain, heal and manage its own functions.
"Incompetent medics, parlaying to a theocracy of victimhood"
is what you meant to say Islander. Been there. It's easy to fool oneself into believing that something other than our own lack of responsibility for the degree of control we are willing to take with our own brains and the resultant unhindered manifestations of brain activity, is/are to blame. that's a child's mind. an attractive prospect for many adults.
Thanks for your long post Ben Wilson, I appreciated that a lot, inspiring.
Chris, I think you have a problem.
Well, duh!?
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3410,
3 of them came from the area I've made my home in, and the others I knew in the Greymouth-to-Punakaiki area.
Ah! Well, that explains it. ;)
But seriously... I can't argue with your observations, except to say that possibly sometimes one gets the explanations one looks for.
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possibly sometimes one gets the explanations one looks for.
sounds like that to me.
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I’m sorry to hear about the unfortunate out comes for the mentally unwell people you knew Islander .
But while I believe cannabis may be able to bring on a schizophrenic episode in someone who already has the condition I don’t believe cannabis itself can cause the disease. Otherwise where’s the huge spike in the stats starting from the mid 1960’s on ………. There isn’t one.
However keeping youngsters drug free for as long as possible is a fine idea which I support .When I say alcohol psychosis I’m probably not using the clinically correct term, I use it to describe out of character violence and aggression brought on by the consumption of alcohol …….
I’d say most domestic violence involves a bit of alcohol psychosis ……. and we have a lot of that in Nz.
Same when males get in fights and punch their mates ……… or people fighting with strangers at places like taxi stands .
What else but psychosis could cause a young person to use their car as a weapon and run down people?. Now that IS attempted mass murder and every case I can think of bar one involved an alcohol affected person behind the steering wheel.
Having worked as both a barman and a taxi driver in the past I’m actually quite surprised to think anyone believes alcohol psychosis to be a rare condition. But my use of the term is pretty broad.
Quite often it is the amount of drunk people around which has a bearing on how safe or relaxed we feel, especially in an environment like a city center. The consumption of alcohol is related to rates of violence, disorder and dickheadness …………… not cannabis
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But while I believe cannabis may be able to bring on a schizophrenic episode in someone who already has the condition
While I'm in total agreement about this, I don't think enough is said about the potential to use cannabis to suppress (mild) paranoid schizophrenic episodes.
"oh that wasn't real, I'm just stoned"
is a remarkably powerful grounding point, especially considering THC is relatively unimpairing. The danger of (mild) paranoid schizophrenia is not so much the hallucinations themselves as much as our belief in them. Just personal experience there though...
And in answer to lung cancer...........moon cake.
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""Incompetent medics, parlaying to a theocracy of victimhood" is what you meant to say Islander."
Emphatically not so (aside from the fact that your words in quotes are nonsensical.)
We are - our brains are- extraordinary - and extraordinarily vulnerable. Believe what you like - and you obviously will - but I will back my experiences against your beliefs, especially when your beliefs run counter to my experiences.
Anyway, I've said my say. I'll leave this thread here.
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but I will back my experiences against your beliefs
As I'm guessing you've never been formally diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, it's more likely that you're backing your belief in others experiences against my experiences.
Sorry if you couldn't make sense of this
"Incompetent medics, parlaying to a theocracy of victimhood"
basically, medical professionals who still don't know enough, working at the behest of drug companies in a manner that disenfranchises sufferers. Thus, The sufferer's potential to exploit the same faculties that exacerbated the problem in order to consciously solve the problem are categorically denied (limited profitability.)
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Strangely islander, I find the disenfranchisement prescribed by the medical professionals ie. 'deranged', not dissimilar to your categorically dismissing a series of words as entirely nonsensical.
Taking the time to ponder and attempt to form an independent opinion as to their collective meaning regardless of the initially perceived apparent lack of logic, is not always a waste of time.
I do not pretend that we don't all suffer vulnerabilities, merely that our capacity to be consciously aware of our vulnerabilities indicates the potential to interact with our own vulnerabilities.
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Ok, Whilst I truly respect anyone's right to examine entirely disregarded studies for political, societal benefit (let's face it, not many governments think about it seriously) let's agree for the benefit of stoners, that Islander may have a wisdom of finer detail, and the average person may not enter this field but some could. Can't we all grow up one day? I guess not,if it's tit for tat. I mean at the end of the day, some grow up and figure their own tolerance and deal with it accordingly. It's called human nature. Yes, some can't and screw up, and some trigger different reactions that the brain will interpret. Sometimes it ca not be helped. It is life. Be in it.
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Sofie, I agree with 99% of what Islander said but the term 'deranged' is ignorant and offensive (unclear as to whether that's the wording used by the competent medics or Islander herself. I just don't like it, it's nothing personal, simply diversity of opinion. nice edit Sofie, hiding 'tit for tat' in the middle eases the ego bruise ; r
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Fair enough, I just added a bit as I thought a little further. I'll probably add to this. :) There.Please believe (I am only honest, I have nothing to hide)that many humans I have come across, seek out the most that they can for their future. That does develop in whatever way that may manifest. Some have been ok, others IMO have not achieved the place they were aiming for. Shit happens. Luck of the draw annat, but some have soared. Drugs have been a part of their lives but not all. Like anything, tolerance becomes the adult decision we make, (I like to think, when we grow up) and we then choose as to paths we take.
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nz native: I kind of agree with you, the behaviour of some hard-core drinkers in our culture is totally fucked up.
BUT: I think drunkenness is to some extent socially constructed. We all know of the studies where people are given OJ but told they have screwdrivers, and behave like munters... conversely, in some societies, people drink a lot but being visibly drunk is seen as shameful. I think a problem we have in New Zealand is that alcohol is something that we have to have in order let loose (cause we're inhibited so and sos) and having let loose with alcohol, virtually anything we do is ok and in some circles even admirable, cause alcohol made us do it. You can't tell someone what you really think unless you're really pissed, and then you fuck it up because you had to drink so much to get there. You can't have a good time unselfconsciously unless you're really pissed and then you're too pissed to really enjoy or remember. Elsewhere -- I base this on hanging out with a lot of South Americans recently -- people have better interpersonal relationships and dance and sing and stuff and they don't have to get pissed first.
If I ran the anti-drinking campaigns, I'd stop with the "it's how we're drinking" slogan and start taunting young men about whether they can hold their liquor like a real man, ie by behaving cheerfully and not throwing up/smashing things and people/generally being an anti-social prick.
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whether they can hold their liquor like a real man,
Not that it is just men,but what would a choice do? Could it solve the "those that don't drink well" situation if we let the odd person have a smoke?
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Drugs have been a part of their lives but not all. Like anything, tolerance becomes the adult decision we make, (I like to think, when we grow up) and we then choose as to paths we take.
I agree.
cause alcohol made us do it.
Like all drugs, just catalysts to express what is ultimately still (on some level), just our own free will. Criminalizing any of it negates this benign classification, placing the onus on the drug rather than user, perpetuating the lack of responsibility. re: ads,I like the angle Stephen, but the 'taunting'.... it'd be nice to see super jovial folk, some wasted, some not so much, text challenging; "can u enjoy yourself this much?" I know it's dumb, but I think ultimately good examples provide more tangible positive reinforcement.
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examples provide more tangible positive reinforcement.
Nothing like experience , and, happy to say I refuse to judge because if I haven't tried it ,I cannot judge. Examples always help to be educated but when we are talking drugs, everyone is different. Cheers.
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Nothing like experience , and, happy to say I refuse to judge because if I haven't tried it ,I cannot judge.
Those who don't experience often are the most judgmental, though. And they are uninhibited in their right to say so. One of the worst outcomes of prohibition.
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Mr Wilson is right ma'am, Again, everyone happens to be different so I fail to see a law that can discriminate as being a good law. Decriminalise. Rehabilitate. Educate. Better understanding is the key. Education, Tolerance must equal a better society, because with choice our country is Utopia. I'd like to nominate NZ as "a friggin good choice to start with.
Meaning to get in touch with Ben, and off topic, my bestest friend t'other day said to please convey that the Aloe juice 100% removed skin eczema whilst stopping all her problems related to that. Firm believer in needing it internally, not just externally for cosmetic purpose. There is the juice available through supermarkets. Asian stores all have differing quality. .
As you were -
Time for some organic Hemlock tea and then see how your body deals with it & of course there is no judging without having first tried it.
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Good call Just Thinking, I just tried some. That numb feeling in my toes seems to be spreading to my legs - cooool. Come to think of it, I've never seen a corpse itching. We owe a cock to Asclepius. See to it.
Sophie, will try it.
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Time for some organic Hemlock tea and then see how your body deals with it & of course there is no judging without having first tried it.
Of course. Nothing like hemlock awareness to be able to take if that's your choice eh? So you first JT
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should we ban soap?
... and if that happened you know that within the week there'd be black market body cleansers being sold from somebody's back door at inflated prices. Most likely, the soap would contain dodgy ingredients; maybe something harmless or perhaps not (too much caustic soda perhaps?). There'd be no quality control so it might or might not get you very clean - you could never tell until after using it. Likewise, it might just wind up causing your skin to peel off or perhaps it'll just eventually cause skin cancer because of all the crap ingredients.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg. In a few years, the black marketeers will be pushing even stronger and more concentrated body cleaners on us:
"Yo bro ... want some industrial strength stuff? Straight from the factory in China. Get you sooo clean you won't know what hit you!".
Peter Dunne will of course get on his high horse, rant on with self-righteous indignation and secure yet another couple of parliamentary terms as a coalition partner with whoever becomes Govt. The NZ Herald will run week long articles about the dangers of soap every year, and will always include some quote from parents grieving over the loss of a child: "If he'd just never started hanging around with other soap users, then he wouldn't have slipped in the shower that day and he'd still be with us."
Etc, etc ...
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...curiously, I never actually use soap, except on my hands. But I respect people's right to strip their bodies of natural oils on daily basis, for the purposes of social conformity. If that's what it takes for people to feel clean...
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3410,
...curiously, I never actually use soap, except on my hands. But I respect people's right to strip their bodies of natural oils on daily basis, for the purposes of social conformity. If that's what it takes for people to feel clean...
Finally, this topic arises.
Right, I need a good non-shampoo hair-washing recipe. I tried the baking soda / vinegar one; okay, but still too oil-stripping / drying (which is the problem with shampoo in the first place).
Any ideas?
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This looks like a good start.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/3255670/University-forum-targets-binge-drinking
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