Speaker: How to Look Good as a Nazi
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Firstly, good article Anke. Unfortunately those who could gain the most from reading it are also the least likely to.
Figgie said:
It is sickening to see New Zealand students laughing at and making light of the Holocaust.
Sigh. Nazism isn't the same thing as the holocaust. The holocaust was a genocidal event aimed at the Jews. Nazism was a fascist ideology spanning a couple of decades (at a minimum). Anke's article was about Nazism and the effects it has on the German sense of identity; the holocaust wasn't even mentioned.
Stereotypes should only be used to criticise/draw attention to racism not to perpetuate it.
Good point. Let's pass some laws controlling the use of stereotypes. That'll help things immensely.
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What Ben said. I think most people were probably wilfully ignorant. Some had direct knowledge, but the majority just decided the "problem" had been "dealt with" and decided that was all they needed to know. That doesn't mean people shouldn't have asked questions. But living as we do in an enlightened western democracy, it's easy for us to criticise people for not speaking up or asking questions, because of the freedoms we take for granted
The fact that almost every family had someone serving in the military does not mean everyone had actual knowledge. As I said upthread, your knowledge of or involvement in atrocities probably depended on where you were posted and in what branch of the military you served.
As for the Jews, there's plenty of evidence to show the Jews had no idea what the Germans were doing to them, other than they were taking the Jews away. When the Jews arrived at the camps they were told they were going to be showered. We all know what happened next.
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It is as if WWII was the high point in British history. That may be because WWII was the last time Britain got to seriously flex its muscles on the international stage.
It's probably the last time the nation was united with a common goal, with the majority working for the common good (bar black-marketeers and profiteers of course) The Queen Mother looking the East End in the face and all that. WWII nostalgia is as much about belonging as it is about victory.
Or if they called the local rugby team Canterbury Blood-Soaked Murderers and Pillagers, as they have. Nobody objects to this (well I do, but I'm nobody).
My ex boyfriend objects as well. He refused to come to games. I could see his point, but by that time I 'd sat through rain, sleet and snow supporting the team, so I have only positive emotional associations with the name "Crusaders".
I'm surprised no-one has raised yet (i think) the trivialisation of the term "nazi" and it's use to denigrate causes, often liberal/socialist ones.
It seems to be used to denigrate any fervently pursued ideal or ideology - E.g. the categorising of Helen Clark and cabinet ministers as "feminazis" or "Eco-nazis" for the Green party.
Interestingly the word "crusade" is used in a similar , positive way. It's definition "an organized campaign concerning a political, social, or religious issue, typically motivated by a fervent desire for change : e.g. a crusade against crime."
The Lincoln kids - great grandchildren of those living in WW2 - will probably have heard that use of the -nazi suffix a lot.
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I'm not. But the question of willful ignorance does arise.
I'm aware of (and have read both the book and the book written by it's detractors) the controversy around Goldhargen's book, but on balance find it simply to difficult to believe that the 13 odd million who served in the army alone (the other services were on top of that and likely more divorced from the horrors) or the 2 million in the SS, plus the Gestapo, military intelligence and the SA, existed in a space of their own.
We know they didn't and the civil service that existed just to support the camps (and there were many dozens of them if you include sub camps, some in population centres in Germany itself) was massive. The Jews were only one group in those that suffered, there were so many different races and political groupings, plus the disabled and mentally infirm. Much of it went through the legal system. with police, lawyers and judges, in full public view. The transports and parades often went through cities and towns. Towns in Germany flew banners to boast that they were now Jew free. Many Jews were turned in by their neighbours and many businesses stolen as their owners were shipped off to a fate that the new owners could surmise, with some degree of accuracy, was not a pleasant land in the east.
Those in Germany were not arrested and processed by the SS..it was the police and the civil bureaucracy. The infirm died in front of doctors and nurses. Many of the larger German enterprises today have very dark shadows in their corporate past. Brigid & I won't allow Nivea in our house for example.
The 'we didn't know' argument simply fails in view of all this. And the wilfully ignorant defence.
I'm not trying to speak for anyone, but I think this is what Anke means by
It's about human tragedy and atrocities of the worst possible kind. It's shameful, and it's painful, and it's impossible to grasp in its monstrosity.
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As for the Jews, there's plenty of evidence to show the Jews had no idea what the Germans were doing to them, other than they were taking the Jews away. When the Jews arrived at the camps they were told they were going to be showered. We all know what happened next.
I would suggest, if you've not already, watch the BBC 4 or 5 parter on Auschwitz and the Final Solution. It answers this. Most knew exactly what their fate was to be after 1942.
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Plenty of Nazis with "redeeming features" in Valkyrie, Downfall, Inglourious Basterds and The Reader. Too many redeeming features in some cases ...
Which Nazis in Inglourious Basterds are you thinking of?
... I'd put money on it being no more complicated than "I've just seen Inglourious Basterds."
Heh, yeah well that was also mentioned in the early comments over at Reading the Maps, with suggestions of “too soon” and it’s wrong to stylise that kind of thing. Some critics have also been harsh on Basterds, eg Jonathan Rosenbaum.
Personally, I’d recommend the film, and agree largely with this defence.I’m all for ridiculing and satirizing the Nazis and their ideology, so I don’t agree with the Jewish Council when they say any parody of the Holocaust or Nazi party shows stupidity and poor taste. The Lincoln University students probably did in this case, though.
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Legally, they did nothing wrong. But it was exceptionally poor taste. They either didn't really know how poor, or they didn't care. Both of these options are troubling.
Frankly I find this in much poorer taste Rich.
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=48616
A military procession, including five never-before-seen missiles, will be on display on the central Avenue of Eternal Peace in the early hours. Some 150 warplanes loaded with bombs will complete a ceremonial flyover. The route will be blocked off for the public, and those with balconies overlooking the avenue have been warned to stay indoors and watch the parade on TV.
Maybe it's just me, but I'm not partial to flyovers by planes with payloads. At least The Lincoln students' most vile stench is vomit and freedom. The film 'Thunderball' comes to mind...
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The fact that almost every family had someone serving in the military does not mean everyone had actual knowledge.
Not less than 2/3 of the German Army was in the east at any time after 1941, and all army groups travelled with specialist squads who were there for one reason only. Many of the SS led massacres in the East were undertaken by normal army units under secondment. The SS murder squads operated under the protection of the army. Most of the roundups in the east were done by normal army units.
If an army unit did not have direct involvement, they would have to be living in a vacuum not to have knowledge of what was happening daily around them, and in their name.
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But for all that, who knows what any of us would've done if we were in such a position. It's very hard to pass judgement
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Indeed it is Simon. Hope everything's okay for you today.
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Thanks Mark, yes fine here.
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Which Nazis in Inglourious Basterds are you thinking of?
Hans Landa and Frederick Zoller. The former is the "Jew hunter"; the latter is the war hero whose exploits are depicted in the Goebbels film Nation's Pride. Over the course of the Tarantino film, both are shown as ambivalent about the greater cause.
In a recent Sight and Sound, Tarantino had this to say about Landa and his skills as a "Jew hunter"(his nickname):
He sets himself up as such a great detective that you don't want him to disappoint you. You want him to be as good as you think he is.
For what it's worth, I subscribe to the Jonathan Rosenbaum view of Inglourious Basterds.
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Simon, I'm not suggesting a whole lot of people didn't have direct knowledge or involvement with the worst parts of the system. If I did create that impression I apologise.
But I also know a bit about the Holocaust, having visited Auschwitz and having read a number of stories from survivors of the camps. Undoubtedly many Jews would have known what was in store for them. But the only way the guards could maintain any sort of order in the camps was to maintain a certain mystery about what was actually going on. Many people had no idea what was going on until they were actually inside the gas chamber.
I'm aware of the numbers serving in the army on the Eastern Front from '41, but bear in mind also that Germany had a large airforce and a not-insignificant navy (mainly U-boats), and generally those branches of the military weren't involved in atrocities against civilians (arguments aside about the morality of bombing towns or sinking merchant shps - activities almost every side engaged in).
Of those not actively involved in the atrocities, a great many would have heard rumours about what was going on, but we shouldn't assume most people knew the score.
That's not to excuse those who were wilfully ignorant, or who closed their eyes and ears to the obvious.
Anyway, I don't mean to suggest the German people who lived through the war shouldn't be held responsible for what they allowed to happen. I'm just not convinced that the full extent of what the Nazis were doing was known to everyone at the time.
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It is as if WWII was the high point in British history. That may be because WWII was the last time Britain got to seriously flex its muscles on the international stage.
More likely because between the Fall of France and Pearl Harbor, the United Kingdom was unutterably and gloriously in the right; essentially alone, against one of the evillest organisations that ever existed, and not giving in.
I mean, it was their finest hour; it really was a struggle of free men and women against slaves; it really was all that propaganda guff.
And yes, the Bengal Famine and yes all that, but come on, it isn't hard to understand why the British are proud of World War Two: because it really was something to be proud of. There is a legitimate question about the way that feeling is used and the lack of a discussion about Bomber Command and so forth, but really, how could you expect a nation not to be proud of Fighter Command, the Home Guard, and the Norway Debate?
(again, disclaimer about it being rather daft and all, but.)
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generally those branches of the military weren't involved in atrocities against civilians
During the fall of France in 1940, Luftwaffe planes deliberately bombed and strafed columns of civilian refugees. It was a cold and calculated decision made by their commanders, the rationale being that the additional disorder and panic this caused would add to the disruption of Allied military activities on the ground.
They got it back in spades when the Russians advanced into Germany, though. The Red air force caused quite horrific casualties amongst German refugees being evacuated from the Baltic ports.
But for all that, who knows what any of us would've done if we were in such a position. It's very hard to pass judgement
As you say, I don't think the pressure felt by individuals living in a fully militarized totalitarian state should be underestimated.
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(again, disclaimer about it being rather daft and all, but.)
No, it's not daft at all, and Britain has some reason to be proud, Dunkerque and The Battle of Britain were moments that allowed the nation to hold its head very high (even if the victory in Sept 1940 was slightly exaggerated, the imbalance and other factors favoured the RAF over the Germans..it was still quite something).
You failed to mention the Battle of The Atlantic in that roll call of pride. It still daunts me how so many men could endure so much largely without complaint and oft overlooked.
Only slightly related....I've never been totally convinced that, based on what they knew at the time, Munich was such a major miscalculation on the part of the British government and should not be used a reason to subtract from that sense of national chest puffery, as it often is.
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. . . bear in mind also that Germany had a large airforce and a not-insignificant navy (mainly U-boats), and generally those branches of the military weren't involved in atrocities against civilians (arguments aside about the morality of bombing towns or sinking merchant shps - activities almost every side engaged in).
True. Großadmiral Karl Dönitz received his ten-year sentence for war crimes on the basis that he'd ordered unrestricted submarine warfare in violation of treaties in force at the time. That both the British Admiralty and the US Navy had acted at times under essentially the same orders was expediently ignored. In practice, the hapless Dönitz received victor's justice for his largely titular role as Hitler's successor, a position he never actively sought.
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The Red air force caused quite horrific casualties amongst German refugees being evacuated from the Baltic ports.
And then, of course, there was the Wilhelm Gustloff.
Not technically a war crime, for reasons given in the article, but I mean, words fail.
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My ex boyfriend objects as well. He refused to come to games. I could see his point, but by that time I 'd sat through rain, sleet and snow supporting the team, so I have only positive emotional associations with the name "Crusaders".
Do any decent medieval European history course and you'll be left with the association of the term with "fuckwits". It's the beginning of Western colonialism, basically.
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China's international broadcasting channel CCTV9 just announced Mount Everest was first climbed on 25th May 1960 by Wang Fuzhou, Qu Yinhua.
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China's international broadcasting channel CCTV9 just announced Mount Everest was first climbed on 25th May 1960 by Wang Fuzhou, Qu Yinhua.
....I don't even.
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hadn't turned on the TV for 4 years....What a sham.
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I think Americans consider Pearl Harbour to be some sort of war crime, despite the almost entirely military nature of the target.
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Exceptionalism - how dare they attack god's favoured folk.
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I guess Nazi's and Jews is the new cowboys and indians.
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