Island Life: Let’s learn English, with John Key.
310 Responses
First ←Older Page 1 2 3 4 5 … 13 Newer→ Last
-
"Actually I/S I don't really think it is particularly nice to secretly record people. "
It's poor and i thought it was poor when someone did it to mike williams but maybe convention is now truely broken. Talk with consistency and honesty about your political convictions because we've had enough of Party A collapsing its vote just to have Party B
come in and pretend its their natural time in the sun. -
But we live in the digital age, where everyone owns a MP3 recorder and the cameras are everywhere
Well, that's always the justification of the scopophilac isn't it -- technology exists, therefore there's no boundaries on how it's used. And I guess as you've so eloquently said up thread, we're not facing a general election this year. It's a holy war for the heart and soul of the nation, and when you're righteous the end always justifies the means. Right?
-
Maybe national need another 3 years to cook?
-
Talk with consistency and honesty about your political convictions because we've had enough of Party A collapsing its vote just to have Party B
Or assume everyone is wired and you're better off not saying anything meaningful at all, as opposed to a three second soundbite nobody could possibly take any exception to. Never change your mind, because that's a flip-flop. Never admit you're wrong, because that's weakness. Never show any degree of humanity whatsoever, because whatever people say to the contrary you're going to get spat on. Then, when people complain that politicians are soulless automatons, keep muttering under your breath "but I thought that's what you wanted".
-
Actually I/S I don't really think it is particularly nice to secretly record people.
I don't either. But at the same time, I also recognise the democratic value in keeping politicians on their toes and making sure they know we are watching them. And if it leads to them saying in private what they say in public, then so much the better.
-
Ok.... I'm going to play devil's advocate....
English and Lockwood have been caught saying "Just wait, we'll do something more to your liking later"
So far, theres been a 100% assumption that the "lie" has been public and the "truth" is private...
Could it not be the other way around?
Might not a genuinely centrist politician want to try and placate more extreme supporters and keep them on-side if they thought they were in danger of defecting?
-
Might not a genuinely centrist politician want to try and placate more extreme supporters and keep them on-side if they thought they were in danger of defecting?
Yes, but then they'd be having these conversations with ordinary people in the street, not with members of the group who are more likely to be extremists.
-
"Or assume everyone is wired and you're better off not saying anything meaningful at all, as opposed to a three second soundbite nobody could possibly take any exception to. Never change your mind, because that's a flip-flop. Never admit you're wrong, because that's weakness. Never show any degree of humanity whatsoever, because whatever people say to the contrary you're going to get spat on. Then, when people complain that politicians are soulless automatons, keep muttering under your breath "but I thought that's what you wanted".
They're already soulless automations ,..... but we saw bills soul and it was different from his automation.
I want a strong National Party as much as you do but this just feels like bollocks..
-
"Might not a genuinely centrist politician want to try and placate more extreme supporters and keep them on-side if they thought they were in danger of defecting?'
You're not genuinely centrist if you're still courting the extreme. Being genuinely centrist means saying , "hey extreme people I don't have much to offer you because I'm here in the centre."
-
It seems to me people who are recruited into politics from autocratic or technocratic backgrounds underrate the skill set of the politician.They are not used to having their word or their agenda questioned, and beneath the smooth exterior seems to lurk a corporate authoritarian, who gets angry when impertinent peons go off the coporate message.
[derisive spluttering noise]
Bollocks.
I've seen Clark do that (most Monday press conferences, these days); certainly Cullen; we've all seen Winston doing it rather a lot of late.
Hide; Dunne; even Fitzsimons on a very bad day, although she goes more for the pained look that anyone would think differently...
In fact, Key generally hasn't got aggro, until quite recently. The lack of aggro-ness has been commented on (and seen as a potential weakness, btw)
-
Jeremy... yes if you are genuinely centrist, sure... but what if you're a politician and you want as many votes as you can scrounge?
Note, for my "what-if scenario" to be true, they wouldnt actually have to have personal belief in the "centrist line".... just knowledge that it was a genuine reality...
If you are in a centre-right party.... getting votes from the centre-left is prioriy #1.... but stopping your existing votes drifting to ACT is also important....
And with only a few exceptions, politicians of all sides have a bad habit of telling the listener what they want to hear....
-
Yes, but then they'd be having these conversations with ordinary people in the street, not with members of the group who are more likely to be extremists.
Do I smell word poo on your breath, Idiot? Or iis anyone who belongs to or votes for the National Party an "extremist" by definition?
-
And with only a few exceptions, politicians of all sides have a bad habit of telling the listener what they want to hear...
And we all know about the slipping standard of the listener.
-
Craig: Hardly. But it is well known that there are people in National who would find ACT a closer match for their policies, and those are the extremists I was referring to.
-
"If you are in a centre-right party.... getting votes from the centre-left is prioriy #1.... but stopping your existing votes drifting to ACT is also important...."
sure, thats what's happening? It's bollocks but that's what's happening. ACT should get their voters and labour should get theirs. That would be more reflective of a democracy than just blurring your policy to take natural votes off other parties......,work with ACT if ACT steal your more extreme voters.
"And with only a few exceptions, politicians of all sides have a bad habit of telling the listener what they want to hear....'"Where is your research, your figures etc? I go on individuals, i've never seen stats. In this case it's Bill and Lockwood doing the blur, on election year. When they are supposed to be winning us over.
-
Well, John Key on Radio Live, developing his "dirty tactics" theme, has just made the allegation that Nicky Hager "broke into" the e-mail system. And this morning he said that Helen Clark got him to do it (NZ Herald).
Those are really reckless allegations. I think Hager might need to issue a "put up or shut up" statement.
-
I agree. I wonder if he shoved that out in haste to divert attention from the preceding risible proposition that the tapes might have been doctored.
-
Taping is wrong without prior knowledge
Well, yes. It fails the simple test: "do you want it done to you?".
But if you do it, and write the story, and the story gets public acclaim and something wrong is exposed and justice is (alas, only partially) served, then you get a Qantas Media Award (see Philip Kitchin, Louise Nicholas, and the cop Dewar).
When is a spy an investigative journalist? We can toss it around but I think we'll end up at the familiar place: ends, means. Not nice, but then Utopia is still a work in progress.
I wish bad things only got reported in good ways. I wish everybody burst into truth as soon as they saw a microphone. But until they do, we have a choice of evils, and you choose the lesser one. Which one it is, is up to you. Is anybody insisting on absolutes (see example above)?
So it's worth repeating: this "secret" was about public policy, not personal lives. And it was a cocktail party, not the SIS.
-
There's some bloody dead fish you have to swallow
I don't get that statement at all. How are dead fish better than live fish? Is Lockwood a seagull?
Personally I don't have a problem with the secret recording of politicians at a conference. To me the question is about context. A conference is OK, in their bedroom isn't.
We already have a whistleblowers law which allows people to release stuff into the public domain where its in the public interest. To me these two statements are absolutely in the public interest. I can't remember the Mike Williams one to know whether it would withstand the similar test.
I get the impression with National that they're adopting a George Bush-Iraq-911-terrorist type strategy. Say 'stolen emails' enough, and a bunch of people will come to believe that they really were stolen, even if the actual evidence (police etc) says that's not the case.
-
I think Hager might need to issue a "put up or shut up" statement.
I think he should. I think Morning Report should not use these allegations, which are totally unfounded, as if they had some basis. The same goes for the allegations that Labour activists (who somehow sneaked into National's conference) taped Smith and English's conversations.
Plunket's interview of Cullen was absurd, something like:
Plunket: did Labour activists tape these conversations?
Cullen: I have no idea who taped these conversations.
Plunket: So your not denying it was Labour activists.[Repeat twelve times]
Anyone for Kafka?
-
Quelle surprise, the smear is on the person who had the temerity to record the actual frank discussion of someone who wants to be a minister in a few months time. As usual, Nicky Hager is the punching bag of politicians who would rather not explain what they've said when they thought the public was out of earshot.
When these comments are put into the context of "explaining is losing" (a favoured quote of both Key and Brownlee), we've got a pretty clear picture of just the same kind of arrogance towards the ordinary people that Labour has (at times rightly) been consistently accused of by their critics on the right for the last several years.
-
Labour iz in ur conferences, recording ur conversations.
All ur conference r belong to us!
-
Those are really reckless allegations. I think Hager might need to issue a "put up or shut up" statement.
I'd certainly love him to, and then he can face some hardball questions about where he actually got those e-mails, and how his sources obtained them. And yes, Paul, that might include Sean Plunkett repeating them over and over again if he's (to coin a phrase) slippery about it.
I think he should. I think Morning Report should not use these allegations, which are totally unfounded, as if they had some basis
Well, Paul, that's a damn good idea. I think the hours on end of bridsong would be most restful.
We already have a whistleblowers law which allows people to release stuff into the public domain where its in the public interest.
Yes, Kyle, and the legislation requires whistle-blowers to clear a slightly more stringent bar than "it's a matter of public interest cuz I say so".
I get the impression with National that they're adopting a George Bush-Iraq-911-terrorist type strategy.
Would you care to expand, or was that just a pretext to shoe-horn a poo-some Bush namecheck into the discussion?
-
Quelle surprise, the smear is on the person who had the temerity to record the actual frank discussion of someone who wants to be a minister in a few months time.
Wow, what a cornucopia of faeces we're seeing today. So, it's now a "smear" to actually speculate on the identity and motives of the (still anonymous) person who covertly taped a third person without their knowledge or consent.
-
Yes, Kyle, and the legislation requires whistle-blowers to clear a slightly more stringent bar than "it's a matter of public interest cuz I say so".
Erm. How on earth could it *not* be a matter of public interest?
Also, whoever mentioned the two tribes going to war: thanks for the lesser-hit Frankie Goes to Hollywood earworm. :)
Post your response…
This topic is closed.