Island Life: Get over it
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A couple of years ago I hired a bike and rode over the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco. On a clear November day, it was magical. There were a number of options for cycling once we were in Marin county , and you could always bring your bike back by the ferry afterwards.
Auckland Harbour would be the same - not only a better way to commute but a tourist and leisure attraction too.
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InternationalObserver wrote:
The main difference between cycling in AKLD and CHCH is ... CHCH is FLAT!! Auckland has hills.
Actually (a) CHCH has a bunch of hills that make AKLD's look like traffic humps (Cashmere, Redcliffs, Mt Pleasant, etc), and (b) hills are why modern bikes have lots of low gears.
The hills argument may have had some validity in the old 3-speed days, but I've cycled all round AKLD and CHCH on a modern bike, and the slight bumpiness of AKLD doesn't make much difference. And I'd also point out that CHCH has the Norwester, which AKLD is lucky enough to avoid (by a strange quirk of physics the Norwester always blows against any chosen cycling direction).
And I see no-one has argued with me re the true cost of a Harbour Bridge cycle clip on...
I take it you're a structural engineer, right? Because I've actually (briefly) worked as a structural engineer, and I certainly wouldn't feel qualified to either condemn or defend this proposal without seeing the details of what's actually proposed (although, I admit, the costing also sounds surprisingly low to me, at first glance). It may be that other PA readers have similar compunctions about making comments outside their areas of expertise -- rather than, as you've concluded, being unable to find flaws in your rigorous analysis!
According to the getacross.org.nz FAQ the low costs of their proposal is due to (a) their concept of reducing the width of the current road lanes in the current clip-ons (b) the fact that major maintenance is already required and this makes it much cheaper to build the cycle/walk lanes at the same time. I don't know enough to comment on whether this is reasonable, but I've dropped an email to getacross.org.nz, and asked them to post some details of their costing on this thread.
By the way, I see you haven't commented on the red herrings in Rudman's shuttle argument!
-----Forwarded message follows-----
> Hi getacross people,
>
> We've been having a discussion about your
> cycle/walking lane concept over on Public Address,
> with one reader promising to jump off the harbour
> bridge if your proposal costs the anticipated 3-5
> million dollars.
>
> Are you able to post a few details on the discussion
> thread about how you've worked out this costing, i.e.
> has this been done by a structural engineer, roading
> engineer, or similar?
>
> I suspect that -- for many people -- it's important to
> be able to have faith in the rigour of your costing
> scheme before they make a decision on the proposal.
>
> With many thanks,
> David Haywood -
I take it you're a structural engineer, right? Because I've actually (briefly) worked as a structural engineer, and I certainly wouldn't feel qualified to either condemn or defend this proposal without seeing the details of what's actually proposed (although, I admit, the costing also sounds surprisingly low to me, at first glance).
Damn this nomdeplume! Now I see why RB wants us to post under our real names! Yes, I am indeed Sir Francis B Baden-Hawthorne, the world's foremost structural engineer and ...
heh heh ... no of course I'm not, but you knew that. :)
Yes, it was a sweeping statement on my part, but one I feel wholly justified in making based on the current example of how bureaucracy works. The cost of the Queen Street (Akl) upgrade was double what was first budgeted. The estimate for the new Queen Street Arts Theatre (Q?) is now double what was previously proposed. Lawd knows what the new Auckland Art Gallery extensions will finally cost.I've learnt that whatever the proposed cost of a propsed scheme is, the actual cost is double.
BTW - I actually bought a bike for myself for Xmas. Thank gawd for 21 gears and an alloy frame - I couldn't manage those Akl 'bumps' without them! But I doubt I'd ever be game enough to cross the bridge.
BTW2 - My hostility to the cycle clip on is the cost vs benefit, given that there will be a second crossing soon(ish???) and a purpose built cycleway included in that seems eminently more sensible.
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Damn this nomdeplume! Now I see why RB wants us to post under our real names! Yes, I am indeed Sir Francis B Baden-Hawthorne, the world's foremost structural engineer and ...
No you're not. You're that bloke from the Thompson Twins.
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Oh, and I think a reasonable swap for the Get Across proposal is Richard Simpson's bloody well-argued proposal for a new bridge. I'll blog that again on Monday.
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InternationalObserver wrote:
I am indeed Sir Francis B Baden-Hawthorne, the world's foremost structural engineer...
Ha! I thought it was you, Sir Francis. We meet again -- but this time the advantage is mine!
Fair enough to your concerns about the think-of-a-number-and-double-it outcome of some recent public projects. Having had the costs double on my own rigorously-analysed little construction project, I have some sympathy for the engineers on these items. Construction costs have risen enormously over the last couple of years, which many (including myself) failed to foresee.
My hostility to the cycle clip on is the cost vs benefit, given that there will be a second crossing soon(ish???) and a purpose built cycleway included in that seems eminently more sensible.
The getacross.org.nz people claim that there is no guarantee that a second harbour crossing will come soon, or will even include a cycleway. From their FAQ:
QUESTION: Why can’t we just include cycle and walking lanes in this next harbour crossing we keep hearing about?
ANSWER: One, it will take too long – even if it was agreed to start today, it will take at least 15 years to design, get consent and build it. Do we really want to wait that long to get across our own harbour?
Secondly, it is most likely that the next crossing will be a tunnel – and no pedestrians or cyclists would be allowed.
Incidentally, I'm all in favour of Richard Simpson's proposal -- seems like a absolutely brilliant idea, as far as I can tell. I'd only disagree with one point: rather than selling the existing bridge for scrap (as Richard proposes) wouldn't it be great to create an aerial park in the manner of the High Line or its inspiration, the Promenade Plantée, as per Jolisa Gracewood's suggestion. Now that's an unlikely idea.
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DH:
The rain-fall in Auckland is admittedly about six times that of CHCH, but for some years breathable rainwear has eliminated almost all the problems associated with cycling in the rain
As a kid I used to cycle to school in Auckland. Given the showery nature of the rain and the warmer climate I could get drenched part way through the ride and be dry when I got to school!
From Kilbirnie in Wellington I sometimes walk to work (40mins), sometimes cycle (15m) & sometimes bus (20-40min plus waiting time). The wet weather isn't a problem because I'm moving (therefore warm) and take a shower at work anyway (may require lobbying your employer). Over time I have decided the Mt Vic hill makes the ride/walk interesting rather than painful (although I expect if I was coming from Karori it would be hellish with the cars). I agree it's the unpredictability of the public transport system that makes cycling or walking a much better proposition.
Fewer cars is good in any city. Particularly for the drivers.
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take a shower at work anyway
It may be a superficial feature, but having a shower at work is a major fringe benefit as far as I'm concerned.
I never worried about being rained on biking to work in Auckland because I always had a change of clothes and a towel in my bag anyway. My former employers at Peace Software, bless them, had a lockup for cycles, and a shower.
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Doug,
"Someone should do the math" - you may find that if Transit just closed and fenced off one of the existing lanes for cyclists and walkers and actually paid them to ride and walk over the bridge then it would be cheaper and more effective in terms of reducing congestion than adding on another lane.
If you are going to add a cycling and walking lane on the bridge let's just hope that its not like the design cobbled together at Greenhithe Bridge with very poor connections at each end. It was also a miracle no cyclist were killed during its construction. Their efforts todate refect the current culture at Transit - which is that cycling is fringe lunatic.
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It may be a superficial feature, but having a shower at work is a major fringe benefit as far as I'm concerned.
I agree. Another option is joining a gym, but given the smell and awful music, an unpleasant compromise.
If you work for a govt dept it's worth getting in touch with whoever is responsible for the dept's implementation of the Govt3 programme. A few independent comments in one dept I worked for was enough to get them to increase the number of available cycle parks vs car parks in the building's basement. It probably helped that we timed the request just ahead of implementation of a management restructuring. Bye bye one SUV & room for a bike rack.
Auckland might be a bit harder, but if those who cycle make it clear the demand is there & give the property manager enough advance notice, it's cost neutral for the org & makes it a better place to work for some people.
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I agree. Another option is joining a gym, but given the smell and awful music, an unpleasant compromise.
And, y'know. The pointless exercise.
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an aerial park
heh, such an apt fate for the Coathanger!
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There has indeed been a furious battle over the lake road cycle lane carried out via the letters page of the flagstaff.
The sheer volume of illogical, wing-nut NIMBYism has left me rather gobsmacked, to be honest.
Typical letter (somewhat paraphrased): 'they've built a cycle lane! And because they've changed a single lane road to...uh...a single lane road, it's really delayed the traffic!'.
Getting in and out of Devonport via car just seems to be getting more and more difficult full stop (probably because of increased traffic volumes, especially during the summer when it seems that every car driver in Aucland wants to divert there for a picturesque flat white pit stop brunch).
Because the cycle lane is the most visible 'thing thats changed', its getting the blame.
On a more general note, i've always found peoples anti-bike attitude incomprehensible. A non-polluting, non-congesting, low-harm lightweight vehicle. Why, it must be Satan's transport choice. How silly of me.
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Why, it must be Satan's transport choice.
who else could have designed those freakin' seats!!
an aerial park
actually I've long been thinking they could already do one right here (the old Nelson Street off ramp - to the right of the new Nelson Street off ramp). It would make a nice promenade with amazing views on a summer afternoon, and you could run a stairwell up to K'rd. But of course you'd have to put up a high fence on either side, and there'd be lots of motorway noise, and it's near K'rd (y'knowwhatImean), and Transit have other priorities, and whatever we think it will cost will be half of what it actually costs when finished ...
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Well, speaking of seats....
Seeing as how I have 10 minutes or so until my ferry, here's something I read once to keep you entertained.
Back in teh olden days, before all this new-fangled stuff like 'carbon fibre', 'air shock suspension' and 'lycra', it was all a bit more hardcore.
As any cyclist knows, if you're riding for any length of time, things 'down there' can get a wee bit uncomfortable. Which is why modern cycle pants have a thick layer of padding.
But in the early days of the Tour de France, they didn't have such modern conveniences, so first thing in the morning before the race, they used to make a trip to the nearest butcher, and get him to cut off a piece of sirloin to slip into place to pad things out nicely.
The steak would then marinade in the riders juices all day. At that nights rest stop, the riders would whip out the nicely tenderised beef, and ask m'sieu le chef to give it just a couple of minutes each side.
Bon appetit!
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Rich,
Billy Connolly used to have a routine about buying a bicycle and getting a booklet with advice which included the issue of 'penile numbness'. The booklet - according to him - advised the rider to hop off and have a 'discreet massage'.
You can imagine the rest. Personally I've found just hopping off the bike and doing star jumps will fix the problem.
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On the front page of the Dom Post today - who needs a jacket to keep the rain off, when you can have this? Though a jacket, even a fancy one, is cheaper...
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The best bit is he has no problem with cycling on the inside lane of the motorway at 40km/ph. He's not the only one either, I've seen at least three different people on similar machines on the motorway. Given the state of the cycle lane around the harbour quite fair enough too. A taste of things to come?
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I used to get sore 'down there' on my bike, until I discovered riding 'ergonomically'. As in, upright, instead of crouching down. I don't race, so I don't see the point of giving yourself back and neck pain, sore balls, getting exhausted, and reducing your rear vision. Just sit upright like you're riding a unicycle (try taking your hands off to get the perfect position), and no more sore nuts. OK, you can't go as fast, but just leave earlier. I don't even get sweaty when I cycle, it's basically about as strenuous as walking, but about 4 times faster. On steep hills, the time honoured expedient of getting off the bike is still an option.
But then I was actually forced into cycling, rather than choosing it on account of being a green exercise nut. I rode to school because I was too young to do anything else. When it really is your main form of transport, you work these things out.
You also work out that cars are sooo much more convenient and safe. The closest I've ever come to death on the road has been on pushbikes. They are way under-engineered. But fun.
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pushbikes
I don't get why we (not me, but other people) call them push bikes. Surely they're pedal bikes? If you're pushing it everywhere, surely you should just walk? Isn't the useful part that you can sit on them and pedal?
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Kyle, true...Wiki tells me the origin of the word is entirely from bikes without pedals that you did indeed push along. So probably pedal bikes is more accurate.
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I'd like to see one of those come down Brooklyn Hill Road....
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Biking in Christchurch:
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I've posted this before but it's brilliant.
Holland Denmark & Colombia
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Mono wheel? I think balancing is the biggest issue, followed by steering...I'm in awe of those who can do it.
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