Hard News: Works in progress
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Sam F, in reply to
Thanks for that, Roger - I was too astonished that this old saw had come up in a cycling thread at PAS of all places to reply to it, and I'd written enough above already...
Says Ben:
This was what I meant by the appalling engineering. Next time, I’ll just leave it at the crossing and carry on along the road.
I've been tempted by that most days I've ridden there, actually. I assume they got scared off removing on-street parking by some worthies operating businesses past the crossing, and that's the reason why it has that unique cross-road diversion. It's not particularly safe either - I was halfway across it on the green last night when somebody blew straight through the red headed west.
The only actually convenient destination of that cycleway is the bottom end of it.
Yup. If I didn't work literally right at the bottom of town, and hadn't had a health scare which made me less willing than previously to tangle with cars, I probably wouldn't bother either.
I found it very much fit for purpose when heading through town to Tamaki Drive, but as a transport cycleway rather than a recreational route, it's not quite what was called for. If they go ahead with the planned crosstown links that Sacha showed above, that might get it a bit closer and more usable.
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Steve Curtis, in reply to
The idea that it’s the poor motorists who pay for everything is a face-slappable myth.
Just a quick look at the funding will tell you that NZTA gives $250 mill to councils for maintenance of locals roads ( separate to State highways which they fund entirely), then there is $325 million for new or upgraded local roads, then there is the $260 million for public transport..
I dont have a problem with hows it paid for, that there is no direct charge to users for a mode of transport, (unlike the others), its the what I would call the Downton Abbey attitude: " UPHILL?, why does it have to be so hard for something we are entitled to"As for the selling of assets to pay for holiday highways ( or was that new hospitals...or new schools...or new ..), Bill English will be happy someone was sucked in by his spin .
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BenWilson, in reply to
” UPHILL?, why does it have to be so hard for something we are entitled to”
The idea of making cycleways more usable by making them less hilly is also what they do with roads. It’s not a crazy idea, unless you basically have no idea about what riding a bike for transport actually involves. It’s actually even more laughable for car drivers, because it’s not like they personally have to push the car up the hill using their own body’s energy. They sit in a box in air conditioned comfort, usually one per box, and are lifted by the power of a hundred horses at great speed, and yet still practically all of the money in transport goes to leveling mountains and boring tunnels and resurfacing wrecked surfaces, and depopulating entire suburbs for them. It’s kind of laughable to take issue with the sense of entitlement of cyclists.
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I guess that the obvious solution is to buy an electric bike. They are amazing, like the iPad they take a whole lot of incremental improvements in technology (batteries, motors, gearing, construction, electronics) and create a new sort of revolutionary transport. I was talking to a bike shop owner about this just the other day. If you want cycling to become a mainstream method of transportation, you've got to stop seeing it as primarily a lifestyle statement and a form of sport and recreation that happens to get you to work and more as simply a healthy, cheaper and more fun alternative to a car for everyone.
Less humourless MAMILs wishing they were in a real peloton, and more smiling Mary Poppins' on an electric bike going home with a baguette and some groceries in the basket.
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BenWilson, in reply to
more smiling Mary Poppins’ on an electric bike going home with a baguette and some groceries in the basket.
That would be nice. You use an electric?
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FletcherB, in reply to
I guess that the obvious solution is to buy an electric bike.
They certainly seem to go very well… they zip past me all the time and a co-worker loved his…
But they are still not cheap… You can get a new bike for $100 at the warehouse or k-mart (but I dont recommend it)… you can get a reasonable new bike from a proper bike shop for ~$400 to $1000, and if you go second hand $100 will get you a far better bike than the new one that was at the warehouse, and $200-400 will get you a 1 to 3 year old one that retailed for $1000, or a 10-15 year old one that was good enough for the keen amateur ( or even pro) racers…
The electric assist bikes seem to cost $1500-$3000 ???
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BenWilson, in reply to
The electric assist bikes seem to cost $1500-$3000 ???
Yup, unless you want a very low quality one. Those folding ones are often cheaper, but a folding bike is not something you want to ride any great distance, and probably not at all if you're a big person. But Tom's image was not of a person riding any great distance at all, indeed Mary Poppins isn't a commuter anyway, unless you call walking to the kitchen a commute.
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I guess I am talking about the intellectual leap from cycling being seen as a recreational and sporting activity to it being seen as a valid form of transport for people who are not interested in lycra or MAMIL ego and all that other cycling palaver. For example, if I want a second hand car to commute I go on trade me and there they have Cars, Boats and (motor)Bikes. But if I want a push bike for my commute I’ve got to go to the sports section. I want bicycles to be moved to reside alongside cars and motorbikes as a normal form of commuter transport.
Only once you “normalise” the bicycle as a mainstream form of getting around quite separate from sports cycling then you’ll get more thoughtful design of cycleways, because at the moment I think the assumption is the average user of a cycle way is a reasonably fit person using their bike as a way to stay fit.
Yup, I have an electric bike for commuting. I do a 16km round trip everyday, pretty much all of the journey is along the cycleway. If it wasn’t, I wouldn’t cycle. I consider Auckland’s roads just to unsafe to cycle on regularly during rush hour. I consider my life far to important to end it on something as squalid as a car vs bike incident on some dull concrete roadway.
But biking is great – no need to worry about headwinds or bumpy bits, and I still get to have a nice bike ride twice a day. However, I also put the bike in the shed around Queen’s Birthday, and it doesn’t come out again until about a week or two before Labour weekend. I hate cycling in the dark and the cold.
Against the cost of an electric bike is the quite significant fuel savings. In summer, I might use my car once or twice a week for routine tasks. My fuel bill is $25-30 a fortnight max. In winter my fuel bill is at least $50-60 a fortnight. I reckon all up I save around $500 a year in petrol alone.
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BenWilson, in reply to
If your alternative is only a car then electric represents savings. But if one of the alternatives is a normal pushbike then electric involves a lot more expense than that.
I'm curious, what do you wear for that commute? It's just long enough that on a normal pushbike you would get a sweat up.
Personally I'm on a pushbike but just in regular clothes and around half of the people I encounter on the cycleway are the same. It seems to me that that the normalization you are referring to is well under way.
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
That still leaves a climb up to Queen Street, but at least you only have to do it once.
Don't people ride uphill anymore? I had to ride up Orakei Rd every school day for years. A trip to Patiki Rd t'other day had me checking out the cylists from my passenger seat and their pace is up there with the cars.Then getting off the freeway at Greenlane I was reminded of the underpass that friends used at Intermediate School and cyclists were riding under that in both directions as I sat in heavy traffic at the roundabout. My thoughts were, even 40 years ago when traffic wasn't heavy, we had paths for cycle use.
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
It seems to me that that the normalization you are referring to is well under way.
I saw no lycra on Wednesday in West or East Aux . I do think tho' that from the good evidence that RB has provided (by way of great pix,) there really needs to be better quality roads as well. Stone chips have taken out 2 of our windscreens recently and a friend working on the Cambridge Bypass was saying our roading is shit. Poorly made to save dollars which is what SH1 is resurfaced with continuously. Why not make them good once? Grrr
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Sacha, in reply to
Councils co-fund local transport, overwhelmingly roads for cars and trucks. Unless a cyclist is neither a taxpayer nor ratepayer/renter (nor also a driver), they already pay many times over for the tiny amount dedicated to cycling infrastructure.
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Kevin Welsh, in reply to
Exactly. Road building in New Zealand seems to be more about providing an ongoing maintenance contract to a small number of companies rather than building quality long-lasting roads that require little maintenance. A properly maintained asphalt surface will last 15-20 years where as slapping down some tar and throwing some stones on top for a busy road will last 3-6 months before the constant maintenance is required. Sure, the costs are considerably higher to build asphalt roads, but in doing so maybe a lot more thought and consideration would be taken into account before building. Is this road really required and in building it, what are we hoping to achieve?
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BenWilson, in reply to
Quite the opposite, anyone riding to the CBD faces quite a lot of uphill. Much more, in fact, than cars do. That's Russell's point, the cycleway takes people up the Newton Rd bridge from the level of the motorway below, and then down the other side, when for the cost of 100m of path through an existing park (which would also be available to pedestrians), that could be avoided. It's a very strenuous hill, only strong cyclists can get up it at all without getting off and pushing. Normal mortals pushing a commuter bike with a bag attached are exhausted by the top, and it's quite annoying to think that in a minute you'll be riding down the other side, and then doing it all again to get to Upper Queen St, as cars pass continually beneath you on the more sensible path.
It could be better designed at very little cost.
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
when for the cost of 100m of path through an existing park (which would also be available to pedestrians),
What is the name of the park?I cant figure where you mean
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BenWilson, in reply to
The one at the end of Suffolk St.
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Cycling in Auckland seems to be condemned to special, sometimes "off the main track" routes, and even within fences, or along fences, separating cyclists from roads and streets. I used to cycle here, but I gave up years ago, given the ruthless drivers of cars, trucks and buses, that though was while using the road, as there was NO alternative.
What I observe now is as I mentioned above, cyclists are kept well away from other traffic, on separate routes, while roads, streets and motorways for cars, trucks and else have PRIORITY in planning.
Cycling in NZ is still, and I fear will remain to be so, a second rate or third rate of "transport", not treated that favourably at all. In Europe I saw cycle lanes along many roads, streets and lanes, all over the place, with no fences left or right, just a green strip of grass, or a small kerb side, to separate from the rest of traffic. There cyclists get more respect, most car drivers tend to be courteous and give way, here it is quite a different story.
Cycling in Auckland should be robustly promoted and facilitated, same as public transport by bus and train, and it is time to bring about a real change of attitude. I want to cycle along Dominion Road, Sandringham Road, St Luke's Road, and ALL major roads safely, and be treated equal to car drivers and the rest. Stop this marginalisation of healthy, alternative transport like cycling, which is physical activity most here need, and which will be very affordable, compared to expensive, imported cars and the petrol and diesel we overly depend on.
The present cheap fuel will not last, it is actually counter productive, it encourages the petrol headed people to keep driving and pumping gases into the air, to provide for even hotter years to come, to break the record of 2014.
Bring it on, we NEED cycling, cyclists and everywhere, discourage the driving of individual motor vehicles and be courageous, embrace the environment and your own future physical health.
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Life's a trip, ya gotta move...
Will donkey and horse traffic still be able to traverse these thoroughfares and thru-ways?
Are there way stations for oxen and dromedaries?
Will the itinerant cheesemongers of Puhoi and others from points North still caravanserai down to the Big Smoke along the ancient Condiment Trails?
or will all this be lost too?I wonder if they had the foresight to cater for airship moorings on the Sky Tower - it has been suggested before at Transportblog
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Cycling in Auckland seems to be condemned to special, sometimes “off the main track” routes,
and
I want to cycle along Dominion Road, Sandringham Road, St Luke’s Road,
I couldn’t disagree more. If you are a chicken like me then there is no safe way for cyclists to share the same space as cars, let alone buses and trucks. Physical lane separation and the creation of a complete alternative cycleway network is the only way you will make cycling safe enough for large scale adoption. The thing is, the cost of the creation (to a high standard) of such a separate network would be chicken feed compared to the billions poured into motorway projects, but there is no political will for it. The problem is total policy capture of public funding by the roading lobby and an endemic culture of reactionary anti-environmentalism in the National government and business, a mindset which sees investment in transport infrastructure as primarily about the amount of freight they can ship over it.
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No matter what barriers are in place between cars and bikes , any traffic - there will always be accidents - like this one on the Auck motorway today - carrying fertilser and luckily not enough diesel to turn the whole impact into a bomb of Timothy McVeigh and Oklahoman proportions!
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Russell Brown, in reply to
” UPHILL?, why does it have to be so hard for something we are entitled to”
The idea of making cycleways more usable by making them less hilly is also what they do with roads. It’s not a crazy idea, unless you basically have no idea about what riding a bike for transport actually involves.
Yes. Auckland’s hills are the essentially the gap between reality and the nice things people say about cycling infrastructure in Amsterdam, New York or London.
They’re a showstopper for new and casual cyclists, and they help make the advocates’ idea that everyone should just ride around in their normal street clothes all year a bit unrealistic. (Seriously: I get weary of being lectured about wearing activewear when I ride.)
When Waterview is completed, there will be a cycleway from harbour to harbour – but it will continue to be flawed by the crazy 1km climb northbound to Hillsborough Road. I can do it, but I generally avoid it and take my chances on the roads on the other side of the motorway. Morning commuters and families riding at the weekend don’t really have much of a show. It’s just too hard.
But that would have cost a lot to fix. What we’re talking about for the SH16 cycleway at Newton could hardly be easier or cheaper. Given the resources going into the rest of the cycleway, it seems crazy not to do this.
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BenWilson, in reply to
Physical separation by a barrier is better but cycling lanes that are just marked are still a good start. Where they occur I'd usually rather have them than not have anything.
For people who don't have the luxury of living near a cycleway, decent marked lanes along roads like Dominion Rd would make the experience of biking much better. The problem is that there isn't currently enough actual space in many roads to support cars and bus lanes and cycle lanes and on-street parking. I think it's the parking that really should go, off from main routes, but that will face very stiff resistance from local residents and retailers. And on the numbers using the facilities they do have a point.
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BenWilson, in reply to
It's easy to lecture the cycling gear when one lives very close to the city. Lots of hipster students on fixies wearing jeans and leather shoes give me disdainful looks around the K Rd ridge area. But I never even see anyone in that kind of gear on the cycleway, I'm about as casually prepped as possible and that's still usually shorts at the very least, and a change of clothes would be essential if I had an actual job rather than being a stinky student myself.
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Sam F, in reply to
for the cost of 100m of path through an existing park (which would also be available to pedestrians), that could be avoided.
I noticed yesterday that somebody has, in fact, beaten a path through the trees between Ian McKinnon and Suffolk Street – there was a guy riding a bike over it… of course I would never endorse local PAS’ers getting out with pruning shears to make it more usable as a genuine shortcut…
(Seriously: I get weary of being lectured about wearing activewear when I ride.)
I go for the mid-point and usually ride in T-shirt, trainers and a nice light pair of boardshorts. For summer at least, it is pretty much what I'd be wearing anyway. (Jandals go in the pannier for when I arrive!)
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Yes. Auckland’s hills are the essentially the gap between reality and the nice things people say about cycling infrastructure in Amsterdam, New York or London.
They’re a showstopper for new and casual cyclists, and they help make the advocates’ idea that everyone should just ride around in their normal street clothes all year a bit unrealistic.
For 80 million dollars – just 5% of the cost of the Waterview project – the government could buy and give away 80,000 free electric bikes (hills? what hills?) to Aucklanders, which kinda shows how skewed our transport priorities are. The idea of even subsidising the cost of electric bikes would be laughed at by this government, when they happily throw billions and billions at roading infrastructure that amounts to a massive subsidy for road transport.
But imagine if a subsidised “government” electric bike was available at the Warehouse for, say, $250. For a lot of people, those show stoppers would vanish. For hilly and windy NZ, mass adoption of electric bikes could be a Kiwi solution for Kiwi terrain.
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