Hard News: When that awful thing happens
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A S- this use of the word 'arsenal' interests me too.
I have
.177 airpistol (good for starlings)
.22 air rifle (rabbits, possums at night)
.22 5-shot Ruger (ditto, daytime use)
.22 & 10 gauge rifle/shotgun combo (family heirloom)
.303 WW1 vintage rifle (ditto)
12 gauge shotgun-I'm sure journalists would label this an arsenal (it's all in a double-locked police-approved gun-cabinet that is bolted into concrete.)
And if they -hypothetical journalists- knew about my edged weapon collection! Over 170 items, from mere to a 17thC Austrian boar spear!
(Kept at various secure localities...)I've collected knives et al since I was a small child: they ( rocks & sticks) were our first tools as a species - and if you dont think a flint knife is a *very* effective tool, well, I can demonstrate?
So: arsenal.
One person's set of cooking knives (o, remiss of me! I havent added those in!) & a couple of practical killing tools - guns- is an arsenal, to some folk. Others see it as entirely practical toolkit for country living.I am a gun-licence holder. No licence is required to own a collection of knives (and other edged tools.)
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It just don't think it's got much to to with the "methods" employed by police in this case.
Yep .they just follow the rules (generally)If one thinks it's a bad law, go to your MP, write letters,tell them your thoughts.
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Islander, I have entirely new respect for you. You're a very dangerous woman, and I think it's my duty as a citizen of Jeremy's utopian society to dob you in to the appropriate authorities forthwith :P
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So: arsenal.
Maybe :)
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I guess it's possible that things might not have gone according to plan. Do you think it's possible that things could have gone according to plan?
It might've. But since we don't actually know whether the police sniper team had the opportunity to take that particular shot, I recommend that we both STFU at this point.
From my very limited knowledge of the situation and 'good' police procedure, I personally don't think they put a foot wrong at this point. But I guess it'll all come out in the wash.
Matt Poole: really enjoying your posts on this thread, BTW.
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Some observations.
This was not a routine drug bust ……….. from Jan’s point of view.
It might have been another ho – hum lets go fuck over a stoner/ pot grower lark by the 4 police men involved but these ‘routine’ drug searches are always anything but ‘routine’ to the poor mug who is on the receiving end of them. Nobody seems to be considering what these 'routine' warrents mean to the victims of them.
There is NO indication that Jan would have ‘unloaded’ on the police if they were not around at HIS house trying to fuck up HIS life. It seems more likely that he built up his arsenal was in response to a perceived threat from the mongrel mob …………………. It just happened to be another type of gang who invaded his house.
And nobody on these boards seems to have the imagination or comprehension of how the ‘war on drug users’ affects the psyche of those who deal and use illegal drugs.
I’ve heard dealers say they feel like the resistance ( from WWII ), and they don’t think of the police/germans as the good guys …………..The illegal status and persecution ( at world record rates ) of cannabis users in NZ DOES induce a siege like mentality in some users , some users are very angry that they are legally considered criminals for using a softer/safer drug than booze.
To pretend that Jan Moellers state of mind and spectacular end to his life had nothing to do with cannabis laws and bullshit searchs seems very divorced from reality to me ………………………………
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Matthew Poole - well, the local constable knows where I live...and who knows? The starlings & rabbits - and possums! - may be v. grateful :)
Sofie- I'd call it a rather usual set of equipment* for rural dwellers-
*except for the edged stuff. Maybe.
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I imagine that collection is necessary to protect your stash o single malts. :)
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(Drat! I've been sussed!)
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A S,
Islander, I'm a bit concerned about how an arsenal would be defined too. I already feel like a leper when anyone finds out I have a firearms license, even though most of my rifles are antiques, and I'd hate to be seen as some sort of crazy hoarder just to round it all out.
That will teach me for moving to the city... :-D
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As usual the thread has got way ahead of me ... but hang on a minute mate.
Shooting possums is not a very effective means of pest control, and ditto for stoats, rats and ginger.
I also think the myth of the kiwi outdoors bloke or good keen fisherman is rather heavy on the gun fire and bloke posing with large corpse.
I thought the cops did a great job of patience and restraint, and fully endorse the criticism of police association mouthpiece. The only person I want to see lasered.
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Nice typo.
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Shooting possums is not a very effective means of pest control
You just wait until the pine trees are in blossom, and possums come from miles around at night to feast on them, and you go out there with a big torch, or a 4WD with luverly big headlights, and pop them off.
Professional possum hunters do it all the time, as a means of pest control. Conservation minded folk employ them to do it, if they don't do the shooting themselves.
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A S,
Shooting possums is not a very effective means of pest control, and ditto for stoats, rats and ginger.
Ginger? I know redheads can be a bit short tempered sometimes, but I didn't know they'd been classified as pests!!
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Sofie- I'd call it a rather usual set of equipment* for rural dwellers-
I appreciate you revealing how common it is to use guns. We do not expect the police to have guns. we expect gangs to have a few and any hydro op in someones garage in a house with a gang issue will mean they want protection. Guns is what the gang know. guns is what Jan had to look after himself. IMO
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Bruce, the comment about shooting possums was made, way back on about page 1, in response to someone who asserted that all killing was equally and indistinguishably bad regardless of whether it referred to homicidal maniacs or recreational hunters killing a few rabbits or deer, or possums. It wasn't intended as a pest control strategy.
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Ginger?
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Sorry Islander, you are trying too hard. It sounds to me that you are a knife collector (me too) and own a working .22 and shotgun, you build it up like the kids used as reporters these days.
I see no problem in drawing up laws that distinguish between licensed dealers and private citizens. And between monitored competition club members and high powered citizens with convictions for drug dealing. And as a citizen who has more than once been exposed to house searches for drugs, and a citizen who has on occasion served time for my breaches of the law, I have no sympathy for those who cannot cope with the nasty day when the police knock on the door. If you cant do the time do not do the crime. Especially when you are a big boy of 51. But then I do not get into steroids, myself. -
Bruce Thorpe - because I live in an area with a more-than-usually endangered species of kiwi, locals are provided with stoat TRAPS if requested. Only way of dealing to the little horrors (yep, I know beautiful little predators - in their place of origin.) You ever tried running over the little fukkers?
Same with rats: no sane local would ever try to shoot rats. We poison & trap them.
Shooting possums works very well for local area control: possums are quite territorial, and killing the ones predating your fruit trees produces a lull in the predation. Trust me. I've been doing it for for 35 years.
GINGERS? Some of my well-loved whanau are gingas! What *are* you suggesting?
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Not trying hard at all, let alone too hard Bruce Thorpe: I was listing my guns & rifles.
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Grant suggested that police have a policy of rescuing fallen comrades above anything else. That's pretty micro.
Basically the policy over all else is to protect life and property and they do this through many hundreds of procedures for many hundreds of different situations they are expected to encounter: key word = expected.
In a situation like this their policy response is cordon, control and contain. I think the main one there is always control - control over the scene and control over the offender. You have to know where he is and what he's doing. There was obviously plenty of evidence that Molenaar went rampaging down the street shhoting at Constables Diver and Miller, and the civvy neighbour. That is a police officers worst nightmare. If he reacted like that to officers running from his property, then it was likely he would have done so again had an attempt been made to rescue Len Snee.
But as I mentioned above, the key word on policy and procedure is expected. Their are manuals written on how to investigate at the scene of a homicide, aggravated robbery, sexual assault - all situations where standard procedure can and should be carried out. But this scene in Napier was one out of the box. And police officers are highly trained to follow the only procedure they know when the unexpected occurs: cordon, contain and control.
Sure it would have been heroic and made for a great Mark Sainsbury interview had an officer gone charging in and pulled Snee to safety. But unfortunately it would have been shocking police work.
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Shooting possums is not a very effective means of pest control, and ditto for stoats, rats and ginger.
Ginger? I know redheads can be a bit short tempered sometimes, but I didn't know they'd been classified as pests!!
Oh, yes. Their days grow ever shorter, clearly.
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sure you were listing you guns and rifles and air pistols and antiques but you were making it sound like a problem to legislate between you and the Rambo freaks.
I give in on popping the possums invading the immediate vicinity, I do it myself, but do better with poison, and traps overall.
My target was not killing pests so much as the national mythology of the kiwi with a gun.
We do pose with corpses rather a lot. -
A S,
Oh, yes. Their days grow ever shorter, clearly.
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A S - heh! Am onsending that to the big redhaired nevvie!
Bruce Thorpe: frankly no. You have read that into what I wrote. I was listing my collections -which could be described as 'arsenals' by journalists- as a way of showing why I am uneasy about the *term*, 'arsenal.'
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