Hard News: The A-Word
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Shows what primitive creatures we are that telling the truth is such a dangerous thing to do. Anything that's not plain vanilla about this guy has the potential for creating some victims out there - the problem in the US is the victims wind up dead.
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Perhaps that was simply a matter of prudence, given that the news was hearsay, but I'm not sure I'm any more comfortable with the a-word being whisked away than I am with it being sensationalised.
Fair enough, Russell, but I'm sure as hell not comfortable with the level of post-mortem parlour psychoanalysis going on at the moment, and I'm not sure I'd really like to see ill-informed and dubious claims of 'autism' (whatever that means once it's gone through the media grinder) thrown into the mix either.
And has anyone else noticed a frankly bizarre media/blog huff-and-puff about whether Asian films turn Asians into homicidal loons. I'm a huge fan of Asian genre films, but must admit that I didn't share Quentin Tarantino's
admiration for Park Chan-wook's Oldboy or the other two films in his 'vengeance trilogy' which have apparently found an audience on the festival circuit here. Tracing influences is one thing, but there's some very long and poor-reasoned bows being drawn by people who should know better.Until then, I look forward to the next college-educated white man who beats or murders his wife being described as a 'copycat' obviously acting out what he learned reading all that awful Shakespeare, Homer, and Dickens.
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merc,
And in todays news...the perpetrator went all Richard 111 on his family, and in a related item, the King Lear copycat insults daughter Ophelia due to cell phone rudeness.
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I'd be very cautious about any diagnosis of autism with Cho Seung Hui. He appears to me to have been narcissistic with a huge sense of entitlement and (therefore) agrievement. Those aren't as far as I know characteristics of autism.
Narcissism and autism are sort of similar, but narcissists see everyone as an extension of themselves and are aware of social dynamics (especially of hierachy - these are all males who feel hard done by and/or rejected by social groups) whereas autistics lack an understanding of the social evironment.
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what i think is interesting about the coverage is the desperate need to immediately pathologize Cho.
on the one hand, yes of course his behaviour was completely patholgical, outrageous and unforgivable. but the message i got from his 'press kit' was about one profoundly alienated kid living in a world he couldn't relate to and had clearly come to despise. particularly pertinent i thought her his attacks on the narcisstic materialism of his piers.
how many other kids in similar societies might feel the same way, irrespective of other underlying pathologies? that would be the really scarey question to ask, but then that might raise all sorts of thorny questions about the extent to which secular materialism leads to alienation and disengagement, and how maybe valuing the latest bling/car/status symbol isn't really enough to keep everyone wanting to play nice.
i could never condone Cho's actions but the need to pathologize him rather than question whether he is partly a product of his world is interesting.
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can't find a hyperlink, but the dompost is reporting that the response to the shootings will be "even more guns".
thereby turning the campus into the ok corral.
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thereby turning the campus into the ok corral.
..... or in this case the not-ok corral.
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I'd be very cautious about any diagnosis of autism with Cho Seung Hui. He appears to me to have been narcissistic with a huge sense of entitlement and (therefore) agrievement. Those aren't as far as I know characteristics of autism.
Narcissism and autism are sort of similar, but narcissists see everyone as an extension of themselves and are aware of social dynamics (especially of hierachy - these are all males who feel hard done by and/or rejected by social groups) whereas autistics lack an understanding of the social evironment.
The childhood autism diagnosis was stated as a fact by the aunt, and it does actually fit the characteristics I cited. Even the stalking could have been a failure to read social cues. So I'm fairly convinced that it was part of the mix, just not the whole picture. Martin Bryant had sundry other personality disorders going on too.
It does underline the importance of addressing autism early in life, which it appears was not what happened in Cho's family. Killing people is no more a characteristic of being autistic than it is of being Korean, but it's likely both had a role in his disastrous alienation from the society he lived in.
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i could never condone Cho's actions but the need to pathologize him rather than question whether he is partly a product of his world is interesting.
The comments posted to some of the YouTube instances of his video (via NBC) were interesting, if a little alarming. There are tortured kids out there seeing him as a hero - which may have been what he was after all along.
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I am closely related to a what might be termed a 'severely'autistic person. This person is 30 years old now. I remember, when he was 11 or 12, the thoughts being expressed that there may be a high degree of violence from this person when puberty came on. It never happened fortunately. There's so many degrees of asperger and autism. On the one hand it's almost indetectable, but supplies enough differences to "normal" people who thrive on bullying such people they can't explain. I don't think there are any statistics to prove that violence emanates more from autistic people than others. The key is to treat them with the dignity any person deserves. I tappears this guy at VT was treated appallingly by many over the years. A very sad episode all around.
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I am closely related to a what might be termed a 'severely'autistic person. This person is 30 years old now. I remember, when he was 11 or 12, the thoughts being expressed that there may be a high degree of violence from this person when puberty came on. It never happened fortunately.
A lot of that can stem from stress and anxiety about the world not making sense. It's not just fretting and can periodically extend to meltdowns that are akin to a computer crashing. I guess the thing to remember is that it's worse for the person it's happening to than it is for anyone else. Even some of the most successful adult ASD people, like Temple Grandin and Dave Spicer, rely on low-dose anti-depressants to curb the anxiety. For others, it's not an issue.
There's so many degrees of asperger and autism. On the one hand it's almost indetectable, but supplies enough differences to "normal" people who thrive on bullying such people they can't explain.
I'm so glad that bullying hasn't been much of an issue for our kids ...
I don't think there are any statistics to prove that violence emanates more from autistic people than others.
No - and it would be the reverse in many cases. But, regrettably, they tend to be over-represented in prison statistics, as you might expect for people who can't decode the world they're in.
The key is to treat them with the dignity any person deserves. I tappears this guy at VT was treated appallingly by many over the years. A very sad episode all around.
As I said in the speech I gave at the Hustle for Russell (which I might actually edit and post), one very practical gift of having two kids who are different in this way is that it teaches you a lot about how we're all different.
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It appears this guy at VT was treated appallingly by many over the years
no doubt. and why? it's always easy to attribute mistreatment to difference, but as RB notes everyone is different one way or another - yet not all are ostracised or disengaged to such an extent. was he mistreated for racial reasons, behavioural reasons, or because he rejected the values of those around them?
probably all of the above but the first two are 'easier' to 'deal with'. -
It appears this guy at VT was treated appallingly by many over the years
no doubt. and why?
Maybe because he was a selfish, self-obsessed psychopathic dick?
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i had the umm... "privilege" of attending an extremely wealthy high school in texas. there were a lot of good people in there, but some of the wealthiest kids were complete assholes.
pretty much the same kinds of characters you get at any nzl college, but with this particular arrogance that goes with extreme wealth.
cho might well have been railing against the condescension you get from that type of person, and to be honest, i wouldn't blame him. plenty of the people i gravitated too felt the same way, and had experienced the kind of social isolation delivered to cho.
but no-one was possessed the social dysfunction that would lead them to pick up a gun. thankfully. i guess the message for kids who experience that isolation is, "college is only five years of your life, it gets better. hopefully".
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yep, that'll be it Danyl. all mysteries solved.
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yep, that'll be it Danyl. all mysteries solved.
As far as I'm concerned pontificating about how capitalism might be too blame, and your suggestion that 'maybe valuing the latest bling/car/status symbol isn't really enough to keep everyone wanting to play nice' is worthy of just as much contempt as the suggestions that Chos massacre is down to feminization of culture, or liberal values, or the academic campus environment (all arguments that have been put forward by various rightwing wingnuts over the last week).
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It seems entirely reasonable to me that folks want to pathologize (sic) and analyse after an event like this.
The problem is that most folks can't even begin to imagine a situation or series of events that would cause them to kill so indesciminantly. If they can't imagine how they themselves could do it, they also can't understand what makes someone else do it.
And that's scary because if you can't figure out what causes a person to become homocidal you can't be certain those around you won't become homocidal, or that someone you care about could become homocidal. And if that's all true there is no way to prevent it happening again.
So we try and create reasons and explanations. He was asian in a european world, he was autistic, he was beaten, he was bullied, he was ...
all things we could use to identify the next killer and all things we could use to prevent it happening again.And of course all useless because none of those things are predictive.
The problem is we really don't understand and yet we need to in order to feel safe.
cheers
Bart -
To expand, by suggesting that Cho had legitimate causes for his actions and that external factors were to blame makes him a victim and paves the way to making him a hero. He is neither. Take another look at his video footage in which he's posing with guns and comparing to himself as Jesus Christ - he's didn't kill all those people because of 'capitalism' or bullying - this was a University remember, not a high school - those are just transparently feeble excuses.
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People want to be famous or infamous and by killing 32 people Cho has achieved that. His name shall be cursed for a long time, and perhaps the prospect of that was enough for him.
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well put Bart.
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The childhood autism diagnosis was stated as a fact by the aunt, and it does actually fit the characteristics I cited.
You know far more about autism than me and that diagnosis may well be correct but it might have been wrong. My understanding is that autism is "a-social" rather than "anti-social". Cho comes across as the latter - a narcissistic and anti-social personality disorder.
I'm not talking from much of a knowledge base but I would have thought that the sort of violence from people with autism would be spontaneous outbursts of anger caused by fear and frustration rather than the long term planning and premeditation that goes into acquiring guns, creating elaborate suicide messages and calmly working across campus to get to ones' targets of choice.
It sounds different to me. Maybe there is autism in the mix but which ever way, your concerns about early detection are fully justified.
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The childhood autism diagnosis was stated as a fact by the aunt, and it does actually fit the characteristics I cited.
I believe what the aunt said was that Cho suggested to her that he might be autistic.
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Since the Reagan era in the U.S., there has been a continuous and unmitigated disaster in the mental health field. Facilities were closed down and seriously mentally ill were let loose to fend for themselves (i.e. become homeless), or end up in prison. As with so many other government functions, the prison "industry" was privatised allowing more to be built for those who were deemed "imminently at risk to themselves or others".
How do authorities decide that? They can't in many cases until it is too late. Clearly Cho was in the system that failed him and ultimately all his victims.
Psychiatric beds are simply not profitable, and the alternative is not thinkable, but quite possible.
First hand story worth a read:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9750908 -
but then that might raise all sorts of thorny questions about the extent to which secular materialism leads to alienation and disengagement,
"Disenagement" has hardly the word for killing 32 people. A little more secular materialism might have done Cho some good - he seemed much more like a religious fanatic.
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How do authorities decide that? They can't in many cases until it is too late. Clearly Cho was in the system that failed him and ultimately all his victims.
You may be right to treat this as a mental health issue, but did the 'system' also fail the Columbine perpetrators, or the mass murderers of Aum Shinrikyo? Why does no-one raise the issue of whether Shoko Asahara is autistic? The pampered simpleton Martin Bryant's 'alienation' didn't prevent him from begging his jailers for any scrap of news that might confirm his expectation that his crimes had made him some kind of hero. What all of these have in common with Cho is that they're products of societies that more than provided for their material needs. Perhaps we need a clinical definition of a syndrome that appears to resemble affluence poisoning.
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