Hard News: Te Qaeda and the God Squad
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Yoza,
We all know the "ruling elite" here, and their dirty little secrets, all too well.
The ruling elite don't necessarily have to be New Zealand elites to affect New Zealand policy. Pressure can be easily applied to a small country/economy like New Zealand by the larger sharks (U.S., Britain and Australia). Unless New Zealand plays the anti-terror game to the satisfaction of the likes of the coalition of the wiling we could find things like travel to those countries more restrictive, access to those markets meeting greater obstacles, work visas and academic exchanges diminishing.
I imagine New Zealand's 'anti-terror' activities have a way to go before they come close to parity with the likes of the U.S., Britain or Australia..., if you want to be in the gang you need to learn to behave like the other gang members.
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merc,
Not to mention that they will never fly/ travel free from circumspection again, ever, beyond reasonable doubt or not.
Passport please sir, oh I see, please come with us. -
I was going for 500 posts and 15,000 views -- got the latter closing in on the former ...
Cracked it, Russell.
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The photographing of people at various events and roadblocks is not new. The police regularly record people at demonstrations. Last year the Christchurch police ran a large anti-boyracer operation at Hasketts Road. They photographed every vehicle they stopped (about 100) at the checkpoint, along with the driver. I'm not entirely sure, but I presume there is no compulsion to allowing the police to photograph you.
The suppresion of all aspects of the bail hearing in Wellington was done in front of the accused, their lawyers, the media, police, the crown prosecutor, and the judge. The informant (the Police) made submissions to the judge regarding the need for continued bail. The defendants (through their lawyers) had the opportunity to offer counter arguements. The judge made his decision to deny bail. While all reasons were suppressed, the judge did make his judgement in front of the assembled media (who were also privy to all submissions) in the knowledge that his judgement will eventually be made public, and if the media detected anything that had the slightest whiff of injustice, he would be exposed accordingly. The defendants' lawyers also had the right of appeal of the judge's decisions, and to my knowledge, they haven't as yet.
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3410,
re: Having faith in the justice system.
Sadly, I don't, much. I've been involved in two trials in my time; one where I was on a minor charge, another where a friend was.
In both cases officers of the Police lied to the court - I know, because I was, in each case, present at both the incident from which the charge arose and the trial - and in both cases the judge accepted the (uncorroborated) police version of events without question.
I'm not trying to draw any particular connection with the current cases but that's my experience, so make of it what you will.
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I was going for 500 posts and 15,000 views -- got the latter closing in on the former ...
__Cracked it, Russell.__
And there was me thinking it was all about human rights issues.
I think it's okay to enjoy the process while remaining deeply concerned about the content.
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Maybe it's the other way around. The police cannot go public with all the information because they are on the back foot....
Well maybe it is and maybe it isn't. But on principle one would expect the police, well the prosecution actually, to wait till the trial.
But you're position is they are damned if the do and damned if they don't. Spill now, to satisfy our Democratic Right To Know, but if you do we'll be the first to accuse of perverting the course of justice.
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Does anyone know when we will actually get information? Or care to hazard some informed guesses? How long are these remanded guys actually going to have to sit there?
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Does anyone know when we will actually get information? Or care to hazard some informed guesses? How long are these remanded guys actually going to have to sit there?
Yeah, I am not comfortable with two years and I think the public deserves a timeframe.
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Unless New Zealand plays the anti-terror game to the satisfaction of the likes of the coalition of the wiling we could find things like travel to those countries more restrictive, access to those markets meeting greater obstacles, work visas and academic exchanges diminishing.
Oh, come on... this might be a rather distressing reality check, but could it be possible that immigration and trade policy in the United States might be a little more influenced by their domestic electoral cycle than anything else? I can rattle off at least ten Coalition-held marginal seats in Oz - and a good chunk of the Democratic majority in the House - where being too "liberal" on that score is electoral suicide. New Zealand is not the centre of the universe - get over it.
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"Take a "side" if you must. I'm just trying to work out what I think. It would be easier to eff and blind about state terror, I know."
Not that I've eff'd and blinded about anything but.
The fact is people are sitting in jail tonight and there is a demonstration on saturday to at least try and get them bailed.
You have the choice to go in it or not. I would argue that public pressure will be the key factor on these people getting to rejoin their friends and families.
I'm not trying to fall out with anyone, however sometimes politics stops being an abstract game of working out what you think and becomes a matter of taking sides.
This, sadly, is one of those times.
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Criag, imagine the NZ cops at international anti-terrorism conferences for the last few years?
"So buddy what operations are you guys running"?
"Well there are these highly dangerous snail lovers in a place called Happy Valley"
Suddenly they think they have a Maori+Anti-capitalist eco-terror fusion plot, that is planning to kill George Bush!
It's an early Chrismas for the Anti-terror squad, phone calls to Washington, faxes from London, a seat at the table with the big boys.
Pity when it all turns to custard, but nice while it lasted.
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12 Noon Saturday 27Oct07 there is prob something happening close to you.
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Lordy... looks like Te Quaeda don't have to do a damn thing - Mongrel Mallard and Testosterone Tau are going to kill each other first...
Truth is not only stranger than fiction, you couldn't make it up without being packed off for a psych evaluation...
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I'm not trying to fall out with anyone
Then perhaps you need to stop chanelling George Dubya's "You're with us or against us".
I would argue that public pressure will be the key factor on these people getting to rejoin their friends and families.
Not unless you want politicians overriding the judicial process arbitarily. In which case, frankly, it is you who is leading New Zealand down the path to facism, not the cops.
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Ooh, I can play that game! It's not as though the New Zealand Police Force has ever made a mistake, planted evidence, exceeded its powers, or failed to convict either.
And you'd be making a reasonable point. Which is why we have all these processes to try and dig such stuff out. Nation of laws and all that. The rush to lend limitless credulity to the pronouncements of innocence irks me, is all. Not everyone is even in the same ballpark as the very reasonable:
Personally, I incline to a view, based in the information I have, and I find it a reasonable view. If I hear new information I will change it accordingly.
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Lordy... looks like Te Quaeda don't have to do a damn thing - Mongrel Mallard and Testosterone Tau are going to kill each other first...
Truth is not only stranger than fiction, you couldn't make it up without being packed off for a psych evaluation...It's alright. They've shaken hands and made up now. Because it's not okay ...
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Rogerd you are so right.
"Not unless you want politicians overriding the judicial process arbitarily. In which case, frankly, it is you who is leading New Zealand down the path to facism, not the cops."
Foreshore & Seabed Act anyone?
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"it is you who is leading New Zealand down the path to facism, not the cops."
Yes, quite.
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It's alright. They've shaken hands and made up now. Because it's not okay ...
Heh... unfortunately, I don't think these folks have their snark on.
My personal favourite:
Boys will be boys. Come on NZ, one guy is winding up another guy who is has just split from wife and dealing with daddy's death, Then he gets socked in the mouth, sounds like that is straight out of my 9-year-olds playground at school. However I too have been in that position at 27! It's just boys been boys. Leave them alone, he apologised, the apology was accepted. End of story as mum would say. So what is the NZ Herald worried about. Not everything should be news.
Oy... back in the real world, grown-ups with grown up jobs are expected to deal with their personal shit on their own time, and keep their hands to themselves.
And to be quite blunt, no matter how big a prickish thug Mallard is - IMO, p0rn star huge - Henare hasn't done himself any favours either. He's widely tipped to be the next Maori Affairs Minister, and he's really got to prove he's got his head around the culture difference between National and Winston First. And my understanding is that he's done a lot to turn around the opinion of, shall we say, sceptics when he joined up.
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It's alright. They've shaken hands and made up now. Because it's not okay ...
Classic domestic violence mistake Russell! "I'm sorry Tau, I shouldn't have hit you. But you know how angry it makes me when you talk about my ex-wife in the house..." It's the first blow that's the problem, not what he says afterwards. A TV public figure such as you...
Tau shouldn't take him back. Get that National MP to a women's refuge quick!
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I imagine New Zealand's 'anti-terror' activities have a way to go before they come close to parity with the likes of the U.S., Britain or Australia..., if you want to be in the gang you need to learn to behave like the other gang members.
Which is why the TSA amendment bill passed yesterday, 108 for 12 against. Russ had the numbers about right. I, for one, was not happy about this and for once agreed totally with Rodney hide. This IS the "thin end of the wedge" we already have laws that covered all this, if someone is suspected of belonging to a "terrorist organisation" just issue a risk certificate. We now have a law that can freeze the assets of any person or organisation and lock them away without explanation that is deemed by the Prime Minister (of the time) or, for that matter any group designated by the international powers that be, to be a member of the, what shall we call it? "The Axis of Evil" "The Evil Doers" "The Bad Guys" "People that are doing things not regarded as illegal but we don't like it"
But don't worry, you haven't done anything wrong, have you? -
Oy... back in the real world, grown-ups with grown up jobs are expected to deal with their personal shit on their own time, and keep their hands to themselves.
Well, sure. In most jobs, you'd get sacked for belting a workmate. On the other hand, you'd also be on the path to dismissal if you kept giving people shit about their marriage in the workplace, too.
Which is why the TSA amendment bill passed yesterday, 108 for 12 against. Russ had the numbers about right. I, for one, was not happy about this and for once agreed totally with Rodney hide. This IS the "thin end of the wedge" we already have laws that covered all this, if someone is suspected of belonging to a "terrorist organisation" just issue a risk certificate.
I/S had it right: is this a law you'd want Muldoon having? (If you're more right leaning, pick some random left-wing bogeyman figure.) The idea that the PM can now simply declare anyone a terrorist with no judicial review is more at home in Zimbabwe or East Germany than anything resembling a functioning democracy.
When ACT and the Greens agree that something is a terrible inrfingement of civil liberties, they're almost always right.
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James George:
"However not everyone who cares about this planet believes a system of papal indulgences where polluters can pollute as long as they spend money on planting trees and the like makes much sense."
I love that: 'papal indulgences', but the links not working - wouldnt mind seeing it.
That was a most enjoyable read James - I may not agree with everything u said, but I do with the general direction of it.One of the best I've read in 3 or 4 yrs I been reading PA.
And RB, you da bomb! :)
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Shhh, don't mention the 'b' word!
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