Hard News: So far from trivial
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Who is Deborah?
I am Deborah!
</obscure Spartacus reference>
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I see someone's pre-match build-up is underway. :)
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Which is not to say I won't be watching the game tonight...
Of course.
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With some Laphroaig perhaps...
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I like the way you've put this. I'll always remember Matthew Ridge saying "I've brought Nicky" when asked on one of those puerile reality shows what he had brought along to share.
Eew.
But you're also talking about New Zealand "celebrity culture" there. And there are some pathologies mixed up in that ...
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I don't think you can take one case for which you know only second hand info and slot it into the wife-beater model right away.
Cecelia, I want you and Ian and anybody else who believes he may not have done this, or thinks he may possibly not have, and is waiting to see, to watch this link the entire way through. At the beginning of his statement, Veitch says " This week there have been reports of an incident between my former partner and me 2 1/2 years ago. I deeply regret what happened......". He does not, at any stage refute these reports. He does not say " The reports are incorrect" . He does not say "The reports are somewhat mistaken", No, he says what he says. Tomorrow morning, if you so wish, you may read Veitch's "side of the story" in the Sunday Herald. He may or may not say that he broke his partner's back. Either way, to me, the lack of denial suggests that the reports from the Dom Post were accurate. IMHO, he said very little about what he actually did do because that would have been a confession and therefore admissible in court.
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With some Laphroaig perhaps...
Having recently zeroed the credit card, I lost all discretionary control yesterday and bought a Hart Brothers 13y.o. Talisker bottling. (Rationale: It's my birthday whisky, a bit early.)
I'll also be preparing with a nice fillet of salmon on saffron risotto. Last night, I had a perfect piece of eye fillet on kumura rosti with red wine jus. Half the family is away visiting grandparents, and these are things my darling does not like to eat.
Leo can't understand why I have to shout so much when it's just me watching. I've told him that there are earplugs available.
(PS: The Hart Brothers is good, but less good than the other two Talisker bottlings I have enjoyed; the Old Malt Cask Director's Tactical Selection and the Adelphi Breath of the Isles, both of which are brilliant.)
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I agree with Yamis, actually. You're making a characterisation that may well apply in many cases, but I don't think it's endemic or inseparable from the culture. It might be "well established academic knowledge", but it's also a generalisation based on what you've read.
It's also a label that's been attached to thugby/rugby, because that's the sport it comes out in here. Other countries it'd be different. In Australia it'd probably be more likely to be league or AFL. In Canada it'd be ice hockey. Basketball and NFL in the states, etc.
10 days ago I refereed a game of ice hockey down here where 14 kids were sent from the ice after a 90 second brawl developed between two high school teams. Kids punching each other all over the ice. I wrote a report about the incident to their two schools. That Saturday the teacher of one of the teams was quoted in the ODT saying "was just a bit of a scuffle, just some of the kids getting annoyed with calls going the other way".
You really do despair if that's the attitude of teachers/parents/schools to youth being violent in sport. "There's no excuses but..."
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Jackie: I surrender! The fellow is evil! He broke her back! It was a black and white event. She was totally the victim. I get it. Forgive me for looking for the possible variations to the theme! I am off to buy a cake of chocolate and then have a cup of tea.
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There are some quite good quotes in a Gisborne Herald story, from a Women's Refuge co-ordinator and a family violence cop respectively:
"Tony Veitch's case is no different to what we see every week in Gisborne.
"It happens here and everywhere, and everyone should be subject to the same law, whether you can pay $100,000 or not. There is one law for the land."
Gisborne's domestic violence intervention co-ordinator Detective Sergeant Wayne Beattie says the only difference to what he sees on a regular basis and Mr Veitch's case is that Mr Vietch is held more accountable.
"Other than the fact that he is high profile, this type of behaviour is experienced all over the country, if not on a daily basis.
"It clearly shows though that domestic violence is not something that is restricted to the lower socio-economic group. It happens right across the board and all spectrums of society, and we certainly see that in our line of work.
"However, those in the upper echelons of society are less likely to report violence and more likely to deal with it as Tony Veitch has dealt with it.
"They might be too embarrassed to report it because it could impact on employment or they want to avoid the social stigma that goes with it."
Ms Pirini agreed.
"It is not just Once Were Warriors. It happens right across the socio-economic range. It is just that women who are able to afford to go to hotels, rather than come to us.
"Sadly for Tony Veitch, his situation is playing out in the public eye and he will be setting an example and precedent that will have to followed."
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He does not, at any stage refute these reports. He does not say " The reports are incorrect" . He does not say "The reports are somewhat mistaken", No, he says what he says.
He says that "some of what has been said by the media is untrue, but again, no excuses".
Personally I wonder how strong the argument is that "if the Dom Post wasn't correct, they would have been sued". A defamation hearing presumably would involve going over in great detail exactly what happened that night between the two of them. He might feel his strategy is better to just say "that's not entirely correct", and then tell it via the much more sympathetic outlet of Paul Holmes tomorrow. Legal threats might have been more effective before publication, but afterwards... running after the horse that has already bolted.
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Jackie: I surrender! The fellow is evil! He broke her back! It was a black and white event. She was totally the victim. I get it.
I think it's more that if what has been reported is even roughly accurate, it's something for which there actually can't be a justification.
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Any form of Talisker sounds great to me, Russell. Am looking forward to visiting Whisky Galore sometime when finances allow. Don't think you can still get it but the divine experience of barrel strength 1983 Port Ellen (?Allen) sticks in the memory.
Bravo on the food front too - dem boys is lucky. And tell em yelling at the telly is just a good part of the game.
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Kyle, they would have sued to get an immediate injunction. Less proof needed up front but you're right it would all come out later, so a risky strategy. Mind you if there's no evidence other than hearsay then the defense of truth is hard to mount. On balance I think Russell is right about this.
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Kyle - Suing a media outlet for getting something wrong is a long term response. If the media say something incorrect and damaging about you, the short term strategy, public relations wise, is to correct it hard and fast, before it sinks in.
If there was something pertinently wrong, say "he kicked her resulting in four fractured vertebrae" was instead "she fell down the stairs', every bit of good sense would suggest making that known as soon as possible, with the only delay in taking legal advice to make sure that was ok. If it was not pertinently wrong, say "resulting in only three fractured vertebrae", then it doesn't serve your interests to be explicit about what's incorrect.
A press conference, presuming you have the status to pull one, is the best medium for getting your explanation out there exactly how you want it. Veitch has years of media experience and access to the best legal and public relations advice money can buy. If his side of the story was that different, we'd know it by now.
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The stories aren't up yet, but Bill Francis at Newstalk ZB has just issued a statement saying they "were informed" about Veitch's problem last year, just after the Rugby World Cup.
He doesn't say who informed them.
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Campbell Live also claimed that TVNZ had known for a while, though I couldn't find a link.
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Ian said:
Who is Deborah?
I am. I'm one of the props in the PAS Women's 15.
B Jones said:
No wonder Deborah's getting annoyed.
Damn straight I'm getting annoyed. Even so, I won't be going around pushing someone to the ground and then kicking him or her so hard that four of his or her vertabrae are cracked. And if I did do that, I wouldn't be trying to make excuses for it. I own my actions.
B Jones said:
I meant Danielle, and apologies to both Deborah and Danielle for stuffing that up.
S'okay. I was going to post in response to some of the comments, but I found that Danielle had said what I wanted to say anyway.
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Here is a link to Ethical Martini and a post on GoTH. (Not too sure how to do links) It fits the celebrity culture/kiwi bloke thing we were talking about. I must say I did think Ellis's false promos for the show were tasteless. It's all a big joke, eh?
As for my hesitation about damning Veitch - well yes I know he did it or he would have denied it as you say and there's no excuse. But the revelations have been fed to us by the media in a salacious way and a tabloid way and we should hold fire for a wee while. Look at how this site damned - well lots of us - the Tuhoi 'terrorists' - was that a media beat up or what? NOT that I'm saying this is exaggerated - the cold hard facts are disgusting - just don't think we should rush to judgment.
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I have been trying to check how much the physical conflict that is part of rugby has an influence on domestic/intimate violence. So far I haven't found any (I spent some time online last night looking for such "academic" evidence). There is evidence of some cultural attitudes associated with rugby in NZ being related to some incidences of domestic violence. But from my experience, it doesn't seem that much different from some cultural attitudes and violent behaviours associated with the "beautiful" hearts non-violent game of soccer in the UK. And in my experience not all rugby followers participate in that kind of culture.
I grew up in a very rugby-centred family. I did not experience or hear about any violence within my family, or within other families or groups I came into contact with at rugby games and clubs. I did get pretty annoyed with some sexist attitudes and double standards (of the "slag" versus "stud" kind). But I've seen some improvement since then - at least amongst the male rugby supporters I know. And in my time living in England I saw some thuggish and misogynistic soccer supporters. And I saw some young boys seeming to mimic such behaviour in quite violent ways, including some sexual harassment of young girls.
The main evidence that I found online relating to rugby, was of reports from women's refuges of an increase in domestic violence after NZ and/or local teams lost a rugby match. But the evidence doesn't show the nature of that relationship: i.e. between rugby losses and domestic violence. Though, it looks more likely to me that it's as much cultural cause/influence as something inherent to the physicality of rugby.
I also looked to see how much Veitch was involved in playing rugby. I found no evidence of him playing any sport - he just seems to like to hang out with guys who do, and to exert his influence/power verbally. After extensive searching, all I could find was evidence of his journalistic background, plus a 2nd example of him making a racist comment about an African American tennis player. So it seems to me, if rugby had any influence on his violent behaviour, it was from the particular culture of rugby that he has most contact with - and that culture is not one that some of us rugby followers have any contact with.
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bizarre euphemisms you're using
I tried my best to talk about it in a non emotional fashion but you're such a hard task master, its so hard to please you, I should just get you to write my speeches for me,
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Jackie: I surrender! The fellow is evil! He broke her back! It was a black and white event. She was totally the victim. I get it. Forgive me for looking for the possible variations to the theme! I am off to buy a cake of chocolate and then have a cup of tea.
Ian: Don't be such a passive-aggressive (and thoroughly patronising) cock. The man-hating harpies just get all angried up.
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BTW, anyone else done a compare and contrast among the usual suspect on reactions Veitch and a certain Derek Fox? Very interesting, but hardly surpising.
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When you see the damage done, only one thing should be obvious, sort the fucknuckle who did it. We (on this thread) are fortunate enough to share abhorrence to this despicable act of violence.Unfortunately, some are just stuck in it without support.
To see similar situ, I know I shout for justice (as you have probably gathered via other threads). My reasoning being, IT IS NOT OKAY!!!!
Tony Veitch, you have brought your employer, country, fellow human beings into disrepute.You must go,,and let me suggest, go to the cops and explain yourself, because that is all there is. As a public figure you chose to assault and chose to live with it.As remand prisoner 007 says "Man up"
Kristin Dunne Powell, you have been through enough. I would take the money but I would never protect that coward. Justice has now been served. Let the Law protect you.
(why do I keep thinking back to Sep '06 celebrity drugs bust?) -
And so now we hear that both TVNZ and Radio Sport did have "some" prior knowledge of this from sometime around last December when he confided in them.
What I find absolutely crazy is that they did not appear to ask him to elaborate at all. It seems as though it was along the lines of: I had a bit of a fracas with the missus and paid her some money, no worries mate, it's a private matter.
That's pretty horrific mismanagement I'd suggest.
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