Hard News: Science: it's complicated
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People with depression might make better leaders in times of crisis. reports the Wall St Journal.
How, then, might the leadership of these extraordinary men have been enhanced by mental illness?
An obvious place to start is with depression, which has been shown to encourage traits of both realism and empathy (though not necessarily in the same individual at the same time).
"Normal" nondepressed persons have what psychologists call "positive illusion"—that is, they possess a mildly high self-regard, a slightly inflated sense of how much they control the world around them.
Mildly depressed people, by contrast, tend to see the world more clearly, more as it is.
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Islander, in reply to
That's an interesting viewpoint Creon - but when does osteoarthritic pain become
anything other than pain? I dont know anyone of mature years who believes pain is *totally avoidable* (I realise that is not what you said) but when pain - mental or physical- is omnipresent, I rather think it does have an effect on our brain. For some people, taking an SSRI obviates an even worse pain - that of severe clinical depression.
Believe you me (yeah, anecdata) as a dysthymic, I know what I endure is nothing like the severe clinical depression others of my whanau have endured.I dont know why some of the SSRIs work - I only know for some of my family, they do - and it seems to me -yes, to be basically physiological rather than cultural in any way.
I'm a writer, not a medical scientist, but I am very sure that are a huge number of physical factors that affect our brains (well yeah, obvious obvious!) including
pain endorphins. Cheers- -
A lot of depression in modern society is, as we know [citation needed] is the feeling of inadequacy many people feel as a response to the ideal consumer, go getting "wealth" creator. We live in a time where financial value is directly tied to socialtal value, you have to "Improve" you have to be "Better". Growth is King.
On the last day of the last Century I looked back at what we, as a civilisation, had achieved, the first half looked pretty amazing if you ask me, culminating it he ideals of the Sixties, or was that the beginning of the downfall?
If the USA had become stuck in the Fifties, would that have been a bad thing for the rest of the world, or indeed them?
I could propose a new paradigm, Nothing. The less you do, the less you can harm.
Surely, there must be a time when you can sit back and enjoy what we have done, reflect on the bad stuff and not do it again. Do we need growth?
If we all learned to maintain what we have. The world would be a better place.<afterthought>
So. If music be the food of love, plagiarise. (pre-empting a new copyright thread)
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Sacha, in reply to
the first half looked pretty amazing
those world wars, Depression (financial) and so on were just delightful
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Michael Moore blames the current mess on Ronald Reagan.
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Sacha, in reply to
He's not going back far enough.
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James Butler, in reply to
A lot of depression in modern society is, as we know [citation needed] is the feeling of inadequacy many people feel as a response to the ideal consumer, go getting “wealth” creator. We live in a time where financial value is directly tied to socialtal value, you have to “Improve” you have to be “Better”. Growth is King.
"Citation needed" indeed - I've heard variations of this argument before, and I don't really buy it. I am pretty intimately familiar with the effects mental illness of various sorts - depression, anxiety disorders etc. - has had on family members (I seem to have dodged the bullet myself) and while I don't doubt that one's society and environment have a major impact on the effects and expression of such disorders, I see no reason to believe that they are the causes. History is full of accounts of people prone to "melancholia", or taking their own lives due to thwarted love etc., and it's hard to read such stories without seeing evidence of symptoms we see in friends and loved ones with depression (in a similar vein, possession by demons is a meme that goes back to Biblical times and beyond, and persists to the present day in some communities; and descriptions of it tend to look a lot like Schizophrenia or related disorders). It seems dubious to me that the pressure to conform to modern societal expectations is really any greater then that of older forms of conformance, to religious, customary or familial norms - people just seem predisposed to make up arbitrary rules and expectations, and enforce them with disapproval, censure and ostracism.
That said, I think there has been great benefit in the Enlightenment idea that we can analyze, understand and possibly "treat" mental illness, not just clinically or pharmaceutically, but as much with understanding and love. This has to be better than whacking people with Bibles.
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Susannah Shepherd, in reply to
“Citation needed” indeed – I’ve heard variations of this argument before, and I don’t really buy it.
Argh, I have seen similar research cited but can't remember where - perhaps in Oliver James' book "Affluenza"? From memory, the study/ies looked at depression rates in a particular ethnic group spread across many different countries, and found that the rate varied wildly between countries and was far higher in Westernised or consumer societies. So while there was a 'base' rate of depression, it did appear that some societies were more depression-inducing than others.
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
while I don’t doubt that one’s society and environment have a major impact on the effects and expression of such disorders, I see no reason to believe that they are the causes. History is full of accounts of people prone to “melancholia”,
Ah yes, Nature V Nurture, 50/50 they say, but every little helps.
those world wars, Depression (financial) and so on were just delightful
All part of growing up, like spots and broken hearts but in Global terms.
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Creon Upton, in reply to
I’m curious where this suspicion about ‘truth’ comes from?
Hey Rob, I think it's the connection with the "grand truth" thing that you mention. I mean, saying something is "true" is fine - a nice, gentle adjective. But "the truth", what with that definite article and all, comes out seeming so pompous.
And a true piece of data is confined to that particular moment. The problem with truth when it seems universal is that a whole lot of convenient, subsidiary "truths" can be derived from it. But when we start deriving truths, we need to bring into the picture all the other truths impacting on however the context is changing.
I can't speak for people you've spoken to, but basically that's my problem: when a truth becomes the starting point for a whole lot of ill-conceived derivative assumptions masked as true.
I don't know enough philosophy to go into the more abstruse arguments.
But of course there is also the simple old possibility for truth to be lost in translation:
there’s a stool in the middle of the kitchen floor
Really?
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James Butler, in reply to
A quick Google™ suggests that "Affluenza" may well be worth reading, so I shall reserve judgment for the time being. But I'm immediately suspicious of a study which goes looking for something which is defined at least partially in reference to a particular set of cultural norms, and finds that - gasp! - it is more prevalent in the culture which defined it.
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Creon Upton, in reply to
when pain – mental or physical- is omnipresent, I rather think it does have an effect on our brain
Absolutely, Islander. And I really can't imagine anything worse. It's how torture works, after all.
And for a materialist, the mind/body dichotomy is seriously problematic anyway. But personally, at the fringes of my imagination, I can conceive of the possibility of experiencing my place in the world in a way that would make the slings and arrows seem less painful, less personal, less malevolent.
Cheers.
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
there’s a stool in the middle of the kitchen floor
Really?There is a difference between a solid argument and just going through the motions.
You have to sit somewhere within the vicinity of the fence, whether on a stool or not.We are told that doing nothing is a sin and that killing is wrong.
We are told that international War is bad and private enterprise is good.
But almost every concept exploited by private enterprise has been a product of military research. I could say that the exception of this rule is the internet, which was born out of the wish for scientists to share information.
According to a certain Government Minister, file sharing is a crime. -
Susannah Shepherd, in reply to
A quick Google™ suggests that "Affluenza" may well be worth reading, so I shall reserve judgment for the time being.
Yes, it is worth reading and reflecting on - and I say that as someone who disagreed with quite big chunks of it. What interested me about the study I am trying to recall the details of was that it looked at Asian countries of differing wealth and consumerism levels - so that the effect of cultural norms you describe was (partially) controlled for.
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Sacha, in reply to
the internet, which was born out of
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
Damn you and your Wiki foo and your pendanticallity.
Teh Interwebz Which, in turn led to... ie out of which was born..."The World-Wide Web was developed to be a pool of human knowledge, and human culture, which would allow collaborators in remote sites to share their ideas and all aspects of a common project."
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
A quick Google™ suggests that "Affluenza" may well be worth reading,
You may also like...
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Sacha, in reply to
a product of military research. I could say that the exception of this rule is
not quite :)
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And a true piece of data is confined to that particular moment.
there’s a stool in the middle of the kitchen floor
Really?
Not any more. I moved it. With my bare hands :)
experiencing my place in the world in a way that would make the slings and arrows seem less painful, less personal, less malevolent.
Watching Kevin what-sit on TV tonight, 'slumming it' in India- he was amazed at how happy most people there people seemed. NZ and the "western nations" maybe not so much? I wonder if part of that's to do with continual close contact with communities/people- lots of them. Something most NZers might find very wearing, at least for the first decade or so.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
Bearing in mind that rather a large amount of wine has been drunk tonight, Creon is right, science ultimately for it's own self. That it also creates things that we all find valuable and useful is remarkable, however it is also unpredictable. What is predictable (always) is that really good science is worthwhile. Sadly it seems hard to trust in that.
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
Watching Kevin what-sit on TV tonight,
I am forever tortured by that man's existence.
Try designing a house after your partner has discovered this property porn star.
AND... My ability to have any influence over interior design has been extinctified by "The Chairwoman"
[link removed by executive order] -
Steve Barnes, in reply to
That it also creates things that we all find valuable and useful is remarkable,
Alan Turing probably, found Butterflies aestheticly pleasing.
Not that there is anything wrong with that
But it is interesting in the fact that "Normality" is considered mean (the expected value of a random variable) which is, in fact, what we consider to be normal, scientificiacllyish.
A bit like politics, where the meaning is hidden by the power of X. -
Ian Dalziel, in reply to
stand easy...
there’s a stool in the middle of the kitchen floor
Really?...an oft noted by-product
of people talking
"out of their arse"....
;- )but seriously, a stool is a fine example
spineless, armless and useless with only two legsThere are two settings for reality
balance and imbalancebalance can be achieved through harmony
stance and delicate counterweightingimbalance has a much wider catchment
and a spectrum from wrong footed
to cellular dissolution
it's a Big Country... -
And, tying a few comments together, the style of Kevin McCloud with the stools we all must endure sometimes ;)
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but it seems to me that there’s a big big cultural factor to depression
Also in asthma I understand, which you would think is a physiological problem.
Cheers to Bart for all his posts in this thread which I've just read through tonight. Interesting and convincing about a number of things.
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