Hard News: Not all victims are equal
89 Responses
First ←Older Page 1 2 3 4 Newer→ Last
-
Part of the Mangatepopo problem is the media's inability to do a good job on the theodicy question - Why do bad things happen to good people? & variants. They put up – either there is a God and "he" failed to protect his own, or else there is no God and anyone who gets solace strength and the like from their faith is obviously loopy. There are more ways of addressing the question than that. Talk-back as I have listened to it this week has certainly fed this simplistic "choice"
I just hope, Russell, that you avoid this straw man scenario when you address the faith aspect of the analysis, as you probably must.
-
"...Well, fine. I'm a little short on the sympathy front because they let themselves become the freak show in a media circus..."
Really? Who is using whom here though? When I saw the media in the school hall and the gasps of shock as the names of the dead were read out I first thought that maybe these poor people were unworldly Christians being taken advantage of by unscrupulous TV types. Then as I listened and read more I decided that these poor teenagers were being made into martyrs to showcase their community and their strength of their faith to the wider world. Their public grief and unshakable faith in their God despite being called upon to sacrifice their own flesh and blood is the story, and an uncritical media has lapped it up and served it on a platter to the people of New Zealand. That is what creeped me out - it suddenly became all a bit to much "Howick Hizbollah" for me.
-
"To the SST's frustration, the crime seems to all about the perp, and nothing about the victim."
Obviously a crime is about both - but our justice system is set up to deal with the perps. Something that deals with locking people up, fines, home detention, whatever really doesn't have a place for victims - we've had a couple of centuries of justice-culture set up to deal with the bad guys
One of the things we've learned over the years is that justice has to be fair - used to be if you were poor they sent you to Australia - now days we expect the rich and poor, gang members and business men to be treated equally for the same crimes - we've built a carefull dance to try and make that happen - it isn't perfect, but then it probably never will be.
There's sort of 2 ways you can include the victims - you can come up with some sort of restorative process - hard for people who are locked up, easier for those white collar guys or, if you follow the SST, you can give them some revenge - I'd argue that revenge really doesn't help anyone, it maybe even makes matters worse rather than better - but then I'm a big fan of Nelson Mandela
-
Really?
Really -- as far as I'm aware, the Elim Church is still private property and John Campbell may be a charming mofo, but he's not all that. So, there is a degree of complicity going on. But let's get real for a moment here: Whatever happened to the concept of editors exercising editorial judgement. And sorry the circular cop-out of 'we do it because people watch/read/listen to it, and people watch/read listen because that's what we do, rinse and repeat' doesn't cut it.
That is what creeped me out - it suddenly became all a bit to much "Howick Hizbollah" for me.
Oy... did you just go there?
-
Craig Said...BTW, if want to talk about "re-traumatis[ing] victims"...
I thought Mark Sainsbury's interviewing of one of the survivors was appalling. "Do you sort of feel any survivor guilt?" he asked or something similar. The young man handled it very well but it was unnecessary and abusive in my opinion.It's not only the police who need retraining on interviewing technique. Mary Wilson and Jim Mora are two who repeatedly tell people what they are going to say in closed question form.
-
Sorry, that was Tom, not Craig.
-
Obviously a crime is about both - but our justice system is set up to deal with the perps. Something that deals with locking people up, fines, home detention, whatever really doesn't have a place for victims - we've had a couple of centuries of justice-culture set up to deal with the bad guys/
Ironically, one of the things King was trying to point out to the crowd was New Zealand's stellar performance on victim support, as measured by the recent global victimisation survey (which also had some less flattering facts in it). Victim support is, essentially, something we're doing better than any other country in the survey.
-
Ok reading all thoughts, figured I'd put my 10c worth.
The media seem only interested in their coverage. Perhaps they figure,if they hang around long enough, they may get a 'blame' story.They dragged it out long enough for this weeks 'funeral ' story.I chose to get some basic info and move on.
One odd thing we discovered when I was in a coma and subsequently recovering, was that our neighbourhood had had prayers for me at their local church.I don't do church, never have, I didn't know these people, they didn't know me.4 years down the track, strangers still greet in the street and enquire as to my health.They also check to see if the other 1/2 is alright. Thing is they are genuine.Another observation is , they are very good at funerals too .It is part of their big picture, which often is a celebration of a life, not out and out misery.They also love sharing their faith so the media is a comfortabe way to share, I guess.I just hope one message got through. the centre needs a sat phone,and change the 'crossing a swollen river' policies. -
Mary Wilson and Jim Mora are two who repeatedly tell people what they are going to say in closed question form.
Not so much a "closed question" as a third person statement with a rising inflection at the end. And in Wilson's case -- just to add insult to aural injury -- a statement repeated over and over... I waiting for someone subjected to this crap on Checkpoint to just say, "I'm obviously superfluous to your monologue, Mary. I'm off to the pub." :)
-
As an aside, I'm old enough to remember when "SST" meant great albums by Husker Du, Black Flag, Sonic Youth, Minutemen, etc...*wistful sigh*
-
As a twist to this whole God thing...
NZ Herald headline, 4pm:
God told murder accused to drive into crowd - CrownHe truly works in mysterious ways. what a bastard.
-
Russell: and that's part of my problem with the SST - they seem to just want to be angry and vent - I guess part of the deal is that they're a front for that wrath of god old testament justice part of the National Party and getting angry with Labour is part of the spiel - next time the nats get in I bet they wont be quite so critical
-
I read thier full page ads in the weekend papers about "they shouldnt treat my dad like a criminal" and thought about the southland woman who they have quiletly forgot about...
-
I read thier full page ads in the weekend papers about "they shouldnt treat my dad like a criminal" and thought about the southland woman who they have quiletly forgot about...
To be fair, that was Family First, although I'm sure they have each other on speed-dial.
At least the SST has a formal membership. Family First doesn't -- just a big swag o' cash and Bob McCoskrie. This has the happy effect of making the organisation completely opaque.
And I feel bound to note that under the "three strikes" plan Barbara Bishop would have received the maximum sentence for her most recent assault conviction and been in line for the 25-year job for any subsequent one, which isn't out of the question.
Given her criminal record, a consistent Sensible Sentencing Trust should have been sounding off very loudly. But I'm not holding my breath ...
-
Apropos Mary Wilson, I live for the day when someone waits quietly for a question that actually sounds like one. In the event that I ever end up on Checkpoint that's what I plan to do.
I have heard her interview people for whom English is a second language who were clearly non-plussed by her quirky statement-as-question style. It drives me nuts.
-
And Tom: WTF? Howick Hizbollah? That's... a pretty vile slur on a bunch of people you don't even know.
I am an atheist and fundies give me the heebie jeebies, but if that's how that community copes best with the arbitrary unfairness of the universe, I'm not going to criticize. And I'm certainly not going to compare them with terrorists.
If I were you, I'd ask Russell to delete that comment, and this one. It does not reflect well on you.
-
I'd rather that than watch the bereaved screaming for someone, anyone to blame.
God can cop this one, given there doesn't seem to be any conceivable way to blame it on Bebo.Emma, I may be misunderstanding you, as there isn’t much context to judge your comment, and if so I apologise in advance. But that does sound a bit insensitive. You’re referring to Marie Davis’ mother’s concerns over Bebo? Well, shit, she’s just lost her daughter (who, at the time of the comments, was missing with foul play the likely reason). And she was exactly screeming about it (from what I read, which was not exhaustive). Her concerns aren’t totally silly; surely it’s fair enough to worry that some young people – especially young girls – can be a it blase about the amount of personal information they put on these sort of sites, isn’t it?
But I don't think we should take much notice. If a tragedy like that happens to you, it'll colour your views and remove any chance of a rational response. If my family were eaten by tigers escaping from a zoo, I'd want all dangerous wild animals banned.
Are Steve Irwin’s family anti-stingrays now? Anyway, I don’t entirely agree. One of the things we should (rationally) consider when assessing how to punish violent offenders is how their actions affect the victims and their family/friends. I certainly think the victims of crime should have a say in the way society deals with crime.
I'd go completely the opposite way to the SST by making jail sentences open only to violent crime and the most heinous dishonesty.
I broadly agree with you there, though.
-
On the subject of violence, and people's perceptions of it over time, here's a good talk from Steven Pinker.
See, things aren't so bad. Science says.
-
Oops.
And she was exactly screeming about it...
Should read: "And she wasn't...
-
Interesting from Pinker but he is a Psyc and I can't leap as far as he does in comparing one PNG highland tribes mortality to the whole of Europe/USA, it is always gonna skew results. Maybe one PNG tribe vs Chechen would be fairer.
I'm open to his arguement - I just don't think he gave it convincingly.
Yeah that guy with the Harvard PhD ...
-
13. john Key lies so
those there can here what they want to here... what happened to National's no parole police: has this been quiety dropped..15. Actually #13 I bailed JK up in person about this..
And it is not to be dropped, but will be rolled out again later this year. I was quite specific about the question and he was quite specific about the answer. I also had questions for Annette King the Minister of Police but after her speech she ran away :-) And left one of her minions to face the music, a new List MP who had drawn the short straw.www.trademe.co.nz/Community/MessageBoard/Messages.aspx?id=25732183&threadid=25732183
-
I don't think I've ever found myself nodding in agreement with so many comments from Craig as on this thread.
"Reasoned argument transcends political spectrum" - who knew! ;-)
-
I don't think I've ever found myself nodding in agreement with so many comments from Craig as on this thread.
I don't see why it's a surprise. Twenty-four years ago, a sack of shit -- off his head on drink and drugs -- got behind the wheel of a car, and killed three people. Including my elder foster sister. After all this time, there is still part of me that would exult in having a day in a sound-proof room with this bastard, a steak knife and a pound of salt.
I get hatred beyond reason or humanity. I get the hunger for vengeance, and the hope that it might just fill the dead spacewhere your heart used to be. And considering that (IMO) this man got the proverbial slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket, I don't know if I'd really want to stand in front of my foster sister's grave and listen to Andy Knacksted reeling off statistics.
But isn't 'civilization' nothing more than the extent to which we place restraints -- however imperfect they might be -- on our most atavistic urges? Slowly and painfully, the raging vengeance of the Furies with the rule of law. It's a struggle without end, but if you're not even going to fight your own reptilian brain, what's left except the mob and the endless night?
-
Elegantly and eloquently said, Craig. And I am sorry for the loss of your sister. They say that time heals the pain, but sometimes the anger remains, and questions remain unanswered.
-
But isn't 'civilization' nothing more than the extent to which we place restraints -- however imperfect they might be -- on our most atavistic urges? Slowly and painfully, the raging vengeance of the Furies with the rule of law. It's a struggle without end, but if you're not even going to fight your own reptilian brain, what's left except the mob and the endless night?
Aye.
Post your response…
This topic is closed.