Hard News: Key Questions
177 Responses
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From the 2012 SIS annual report:
During 2011/12, the NZSIS contributed to an assessment on the proliferation of weapons of
mass destruction threat to New Zealand which was agreed and issued formally by the
National Assessments Committee. Key judgements included:
• while WMD are highly unlikely to be directly used against New Zealand, the proliferation
of WMD presents a range of direct and indirect threats to New Zealand’s national
security, and to its interests globally;
• the threat to New Zealand from the proliferation of nuclear weapons and their means of
delivery outweighs that from chemical and biological weapons;
• the proliferation of nuclear weapons threatens the international multilateral framework,
on which New Zealand relies;
• New Zealand involvement, even if unwitting, in the proliferation of WMD-related goods
and technology could cause economic and reputational harm to both the entities involved
and New Zealand more generally;
• attempts to acquire controlled and dual-use technology from New Zealand present the
greatest single proliferation-related threat to New Zealand, and will likely remain so for
the next few years; and
• New Zealand will continue to be an attractive target for foreign WMD procurement
companies, and could become increasingly targeted as a source of niche controlled and
dual-use goods and technology, particularly if other countries continue to tighten their
proliferation-related trade restrictions.John Key seems to be repeating what the SIS has already said publicly.
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Rich of Observationz, in reply to
used in missiles
Or cellphones.
And in general, a commercial grade crystal (such as you can order from RS, Element14, Digikey and the like) could be used in a missile or other aerospace application without problem. Much of the difference with military grade parts isn't the design, it's the paperwork (being able to trace each part by serial number back to the factory and drawings). Then you have temperature and vibration tolerances (which are similar to parts used under the bonnet of a car). Finally, you have radiation tolerant parts, which are important in space or if you want your gadget to work after a nuclear war has started.
But in general, the sort of professional military outfits that might need military-grade parts have already got multiple sources and don't need to try and sneakily buy them in Otara market.
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
...and don’t need to try and sneakily buy them in Otara market.
that reminds me...
must get some more
yellow cakes at the
nice Nigerian's stall...;- )
</joke> -
I suppose I could go round the agrarian sector and lift a kilo or two of fertiliser. (noone would notice the small amount from their shed bags). After a while we will have a Hertz Truck worth, call into the petrol station and squirt deisel all over it, Pick up an old firecracker and........
Does this count as "dual use technology"?
Ore....go down to the Buller Gorge, with the map that tells you where "Uranium Point" is, find a few crumbs of clicking dirt and dump it in the K****ke lakes.
Whoa!!!! I could get in trouble for this.......
Message to GCSB - sorry - SIS (me being a local like): I wouldn't!!!!!
Apparently hammers have "dual uses" as well. I have used one for building a house AND straightening out the local cats.
Hydroponics for growing weed when it is supposed to be used ONLY for lettuce.
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
• attempts to acquire controlled and dual-use technology from New Zealand present the greatest single proliferation-related threat to New Zealand, and will likely remain so for the next few years; and
• New Zealand will continue to be an attractive target for foreign WMD procurement companies, and could become increasingly targeted as a source of niche controlled and dual-use goods and technology, particularly if other countries continue to tighten their proliferation-related trade restrictions.These two things. Since NZ really doesn't have much of a military-industrial complex that might be researching dual-use technologies, it's likely going to be our agricultural sector that's targeted. Dual-use is hard to pin down, too, since it's not always obvious until it's too late.
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
Does this count as “dual use technology”?
No. In this context dual-use is stuff like chemical-engineering process control systems, and high-grade metal alloys that can be used in processes that require non-reactive vessels and piping.
When you consider that pretty much every significant chemical weapon currently ‘in use’ is a by-product of pesticide research, the potential for some of our agricultural research to yield unseen (and therefore unresearched) new chemical weapons is also real. It’s possible that there’s stuff going on that might lead towards bio-weapons, but it’s probably not terribly likely. Much more likely to be chemical weapons, or maybe nuclear but as a non-proliferation signatory with very minimal nuclear capability (ETA: as in research facilities) it’s unlikely.
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Rich of Observationz, in reply to
I'd assume that a researcher developing pesticides will be looking for substances with minimal rather than maximal hazard to humans.
I'd expect that if they came across an unknown toxic chemical suitable for weapons use, it would be quite likely to have already been discovered secretly (probably in Russia or the US). The most sensible approach would be to publish the research so that any precursors could be watched and controlled.
In any case, wouldn't they need EPA approval?
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New Zealand does however manufacture components designed to be used in weapons of mass destruction.
But I don't believe these are the terrorists they're looking for.
ETA: a point made already by Matthew.
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
I’d assume that a researcher developing pesticides will be looking for substances with minimal rather than maximal hazard to humans.
Except that synthesised chemicals that are toxic to insects tend to be unavoidably toxic to humans. Scientists didn't particularly go looking for the likes of V-series nerve agents, they found them by accident while researching pesticides. Since it's illegal to develop or test chemical weapons in this country a scientist is not going to go looking and is certainly not going to establish the extreme human toxicity associated with a possible chemical weapon. As the Wikipedia article spells out it was the post-market release realisation of extreme toxicity that discovered V-series agents; if the scientists had been looking for chemical weapons from the outset they wouldn't have put them on the shelves of gardening supply stores with a trade name.
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
As an example of how complicated the whole dual-use question gets, check out Schedule 2 and Schedule 3 of the Chemical Weapons Convention. Those schedules are a heap of substances that may be legitimately produced and exported (to other CWC signatory countries) but which are controlled because they're also precursors to Schedule 1 substances and/or chemical weapons in their own right (such as phosgene).
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Of course, this stuff is all basically theoretical. We know that in practice, the GCSB and the NZSIS are, at best, paranoid reactionary organisations captured by the institutional interests of international Spookery. Whether or not they are even competent at that is a separate question.
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Rich of Observationz, in reply to
V-series nerve agents
One would hope that the testing procedures for putative pesticides would have moved on since 1950s Britain. There's a very substantial approval process (including animal testing - shock horror) to go through before the EPA would let anything out of the lab.
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
before the EPA would let anything out of the lab.
Yeah, but things don't need to leave the lab in order to be known and dangerous.
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As someone who has been earnestly working on preparations for WMD* in cohort with New Zealand based individuals, it's patently clear that the jig is now up and that we must double our efforts to elude Government surveillance. Thanks for the heads up Mr Key, that's right honourable. My guess is all the WMDers will be following suit. *World Maths Day.
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John Key says he doesn't have a clue how he got Ian Fletcher's phone number.
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DexterX, in reply to
There needs to be a log kept of what Mr Key has forgotten and then subsequently, accounting for his convenience, remembers.
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DexterX, in reply to
John Key seems to be repeating what the SIS has already said publicly.
For his convenience, this still does not support the rationale for breaking then changing the law to suit; it really is just a bullshit excuse. Key, it seems to me, sees everything in his realm, the conduct of the house, the law, the management of the country, as being tailor made for bullshit.
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The disdain that John key shows to his opponents is nauseating. He is only interested in the desires of the Wunch of Bankers in his vicious circle of friends.
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googling "Helen Clark" "don't remember", 733000 hits
googling "John Key" "don't remember", 1110000 hits
This is without adjusting for the lengths of political careers or similar. -
John Key Liar nz
About 1,750,000 results (0.23 seconds)Helen Clark liar nz
About 375,000 results (0.14 seconds)Bearing in mind the vociferous hatred the right had for "9 Long Years" and beyond and the fact that she has been an MP since 1981 whereas John Key has been playing politics since only, well...
In 1998, on learning of his interest in pursuing a political career, the National Party president John Slater began working actively to recruit him. Former party leader Jenny Shipley describes him as one of the people she "deliberately sought out and put my head on the line–either privately or publicly–to get them in there"
This "Shoulder Tapping" lark seem rife with this bunch.
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
This “Shoulder Tapping” lark seem rife with this bunch.
Mike Williams said on Radio NZ's "Focus on Politics" the week before last that he'd done similar with at least two of the current Labour caucus. It's not unseemly when it's politicians, because good political leaders should always be on the lookout for talent; there's no hiring process, either, unlike for civil servants.
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BenWilson, in reply to
John Key has forgotten more than the entire Labour caucus will ever remember!
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Rob Stowell, in reply to
Of course, this stuff is all basically theoretical. We know that in practice, the GCSB and the NZSIS are, at best, paranoid reactionary organisations captured by the institutional interests of international Spookery. Whether or not they are even competent at that is a separate question.
Reckon! :)
(and congrats, if that was you graduating today!) -
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Keir Leslie, in reply to
Thank you!
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