Hard News: Friday Gold: An email exchange with Michael Laws
327 Responses
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. . . a one velodrome town.
That's been something of a perception since, well, since pre-velodrome days.
"In character he was cold, hard, stern, and autocratic, and - what was a big defect in Maori eyes - was not a good speaker. There was restraint about his speech which precluded any possibility of oratory. It was as though the coldness of the man affected his delivery, so that he chilled his hearers. He spoke with a strong Wanganui accent also, clipping the ends of his words, in a manner considered highly barbarous on this coast."
Te Rangihiwinui, also known as Taitoko and later as Te Keepa, or Major Kemp, described in Te Hekenga: Early Days in Horowhenua. Rod McDonald & E. O'Donnell, 1928.
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Paul, sachawitchit is an insecure lump of prehumiliated p-lard who permanently defines this place
see? takes two to do the abusivetango -
Not going there.
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Well what exactly is being offered as compensation in this case? an H?
The redress of cultural wrongs doesn't prevent a society from seeking to bring about more concrete change. If the PAS book club ever takes off, I'm going to suggest that Brian Friel's Translations be included, it deals with such things quite aptly.
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Sacha, I greatly admire Durie; couldn't have selected a better authority or quote from my perspective.
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consider what it is that manages to displace a sacred center then just as surely/swiftly comes to believe that its own one must be the source of all violence!
what do you mean by this 'whims of progress' comment?
every asshole has to wake up sooner or later.
Brian Friel's Translations be included, it deals with such things quite aptly.
Sounds good, will hunt it.
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Almost the entire English language consists of missspelt foreign words.
Hang on, that's dodge as all get out. First of all, there's the basic Anglo-Saxon corpus, which I think we can, for the sake of argument, call indigenous, which we couldn't misspell if we tried. Then there's the correctly spelled foreign words. And then there's the interesting case of words which may be `foreign' but really, why is the Parisian standard French version of boeuf more `correct' than beef --- are langues d'oc merely misspelled d'oil?
And surely there's no reason to say that Frensshe of Paris is wrong, but the French of Paris is right; so you have to be careful with the idea of a correct spelling.
Also not place names: see Kolkata vs. curry.
Whereas Whanganui is clearly of Maori origin, clearly was meant to be spelt Whanganui, which is clearly the correct way to spell it both in English and Maori, and is important.
The assertion is not that Wanganui is wrong in Maori; it is that it is wrong in English, by the standards and rules of English, and I should rather agree.
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The assertion is not that Wanganui is wrong in Maori; it is that it is wrong in English, by the standards and rules of English, and I should rather agree.
Me too. The settlers would never have intended to get it wrong. Now who loses by putting their error right?
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it is that it is wrong in English,
There are 100,000 official documents that dispute that. It's no wronger than yogurt/yoghurt. A valid useage and currently far more specific and arguaby useful than Whanganui.
"where are you going?
"Whanganui"
"what the city? the river? the national park?the island?"
You could name 1000 places Whanganui, what is the purpose of a name after all? it's just going to cost more ink because they'll have nail 'city' on the end.
The assumption that 100+ years of multiculturalism in the place, can leave no cultural imprint in the name, is very environmentalist.
Whereas Whanganui is clearly of Maori origin, clearly was meant to be spelt Whanganui, which is clearly the correct way to spell it both in English and Maori,
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Keir why not rename Christchurch Crīstcirice? Your basis seems to be that Written Maori not be allowed to evolve with the new collective people of the land, or that an English loan word must accord to required spelling dogma. Which is clearly not the case.
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the new collective people of the land
Heh.
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Keir why not rename Christchurch Crīstcirice? Your basis seems to be that Written Maori not be allowed to evolve with the new collective people of the land, or that an English loan word must accord to required spelling dogma. Which is clearly not the case.
Because Christchurch is an English word, thus it follows English rules in English. I would be up for arguing that it maybe should be Christ Church, but eh, the Pakeha tradition tends to let us change things like that by customary usage.
Whanganui is a Maori words, thus follows Maori rules in English. And really, I don't get this nonsense about organic change etc; this isn't organic change, it is the imposition of settler culture over both Maori and non-settler English. I am arguing for Whanganui as a user of English who would rather like my language clean of ugly little bits of racism.
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Whanga = river mouth. Apparently.
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Whereas "wanga" is just impolite.
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Whereas "wanga" is just impolite.
Bit like Laws then ?
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'whanga' has several meanings - in Williams, "1:bay, bight, nook 2: stretch of water......so, probably, in the names of rivers:Whanganui, Whangaehu etc."
But the local hapu/iwi will know exactly the meaning for their area-
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I don't get this nonsense about organic change etc;
Well just as your name is Leslie not Lesslyn, it could be taken to imply that there was anti Scottish racism in your family.or perhaps just whatever was going at the time. Not saying that I don't see where you're coming from, but this racism permeates English it's not an isolated incident, and If you have real issues with this than best to find another cleaner language, before booking your next international holiday. The internet can accommodate this.
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Well, duh it isn't an isolated incident. But never let the perfect be the enemy of the good, eh?
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the local hapu/iwi will know exactly the meaning for their area
Reading the Maps cites Turia, ambiguously. Just relistened to the Marae clip. Ken Mair is indeed a spokesperson for Tupoho iwi.
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Well, duh it isn't an isolated incident. But never let the perfect be the enemy of the good, eh?
ok
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(belatedly) @Christopher Dempsey
I did say my OIA might tie bureaucrats in knots. I didn't say it was perfect and tight. You're spot on re needing to be precise.Nevertheless, if some resident in a rivermouth town wants to invest in a 50 cent stamp, they are welcome to use the request . . .
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It also raises questions about how often Laws behaves like this on his official email account.
At least one more time, although I believe it was snail mail from the mayor's office, dinner guests told me of the blunt, one line reply they received from the man after writing to him about placing a carving on their father's grave. It was not in the affirmative.
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'whanga' has several meanings - in Williams, "1:bay, bight, nook 2: stretch of water.
Names for Wellington
Te-Whanganui-a-Tara (Great harbour of Tara - Tara was an important mariner ancestor) -
Victoria University uses the 'place at the mouth of the fish of Maui' - te upoko o te ika a Maui (really needs macrons to make sense)
Poneke - is a transliteration of Port Nicholson
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It would be good if genuinely stupid people did not seek the limelight. Holmes reveals his smug impending senility twice in yesterday's Herald, including this gem:
When an "h" follows a "w", it makes damn all difference to the pronunciation of a word.
And then goes on in another rambling column about Twitter being "inane". Hopefully media find others to witter codgerishly before his dignity is more severely compromised.
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I sometimes see the whole H debate as a game of scrabble, and being dyslexic it loses me, but it is important.
It's about the dignity of a language and so a people. It's intangable cultural heritage that needs to be recognised if this we are to treat each other with dignity and respect as equals.
I'm working with a little idea that we don't need to convince Laws of this importance and should act as we will. He'll follow in a decade. To worry about him is to give him too much importance.
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That Holmes editorial is indeed staggeringly inane. But it's hardly alone in this morning's Herald. I mean, is there a single coherent thought Deborah Hill Cone's latest random text-dump? Did she write that in her sleep? Is it a surrealist statement about the radical non-association of ideas? Who knows?
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