Hard News: Democracy Night
773 Responses
First ←Older Page 1 … 17 18 19 20 21 … 31 Newer→ Last
-
Ian Dalziel, in reply to
How about “Ma Pa” then.
Oh those Mom and Pop investors...
-
slarty, in reply to
True. I mentioned this to a (grey, white, female) stranger on the ferry just now. She was horrified and started mumbling about a war. It's not the first time I've heard my elders and betters say a civil war is looming. Where do they get their brainwashing? Or do I exist in a parallel universe?
I still trust Iwi much more that the old white men.
-
Russell Brown, in reply to
Couldn’t agree more. I shudder at the thought that Darien Fenton can make it to 18 on the Labour list and Carmel Sepuloni and Iain Lees-Galloway to 24 and 37 respectively. Both have done really well in the electorates they had to fight for.
I know a couple of longtime Labour activists who basically sat this one out because of the list and because they didn't like Goff and Little. They both also mentioned Fenton.
I do think that there's a reckoning coming for the unions' privileged place in Labour Party affairs, because at the moment they don't deserve that place.
-
Sacha, in reply to
Oh those Mom and Pop investors
zing
-
and there we go again.
Oh dear lord, that was exactly the opposite of the meaning of that sentence. Mind you, as far as I can tell your main desire here is to snark about people who are actually putting work in on the ground, so you may as well go etc. etc.
-
Sacha, in reply to
I do think that there's a reckoning coming for the unions' privileged place in Labour Party affairs, because at the moment they don't deserve that place.
They used to justify it partly by on-ground campaign support. Wonder how that's faring?
-
slarty, in reply to
I think there may be reasonable support for selling the shares into SuperFund / KiwiSaver schemes
They do realise that this is a fantasy don't they? Unless we generate $7Bn of 'new cash' from the sales even Treasury admit it makes no commercial sense (the interest on borrowing about $7Bn is covered by dividends from the assets being sold).
For a start, the Super fund (that one set up by Cullen in the face of demands for tax cuts that is currently saving our collective arses :) is included on the balance sheet projections, so any transfer of ownership would have no net effect.
And the whole point of Kiwisaver funds (IHMO quite rightly) is that they aren't politically driven beyond the incentive to participate. If they were they are effectively just plain old fashioned NZ Super - and that will never survive as a contributory scheme under that structure
Like I say, parallel universe where the normal laws of time and money appear not to exist.
-
Sacha, in reply to
your main desire here is to snark about people who are actually putting work in on the ground
whatever
-
Eh, I am unsure how fair it is to blame the unions (it is suspiciously close to the gaggle thing.)
I do think that the list process needs to be rethought. I think that the list ranking should be opened up, and as far as possible transparency and internal democracy emphasised. I think the current method of regional lists followed by secret conclave doesn't work, and can't work.
-
Russell Brown, in reply to
They used to justify it partly by on-ground campaign support. Wonder how that’s faring?
Not well in New Plymouth, I gather.
-
I also think that there are real issues with the party organisation, in that there's a massive split between members and activists. Is the branch system the best way to run a political party these days? Is the sectoral system effective? (I think the sectors have to take some of the blame for the list failure.)
-
whatever
I'm not joking. As far as I can tell that was your main contribution to a coherent conversation I was having with someone else. I am really quite pissed off about it, as you totally misread my words in order to get a rather cheap attack in.
-
Kumara Republic, in reply to
I do think that there’s a reckoning coming for the unions’ privileged place in Labour Party affairs, because at the moment they don’t deserve that place.
Across the Tasman, Mark Latham had some similar wisdom for his own party.
-
Craig Ranapia, in reply to
The question on my mind is how it will be seen by the long line of hui they have said they will be attending prior to making a firm decision.
Well, it might be useful if the diversity-challenged lamestream media went and found out, instead of the usual line up of (mostly) white middle-aged, middle-class men pontificating out of their privileged arses. Att least Maori Television includes some actual reporting and genuinely diverse Maori opinions among the editorializing.
-
BenWilson, in reply to
Eh, I think the idea that the left (really Labour) needs to indulge in broad soul searching is wrong.
Interesting thoughts, although I don't think that's really what was meant by:
The left needs to talk, listen, argue and develop an alternative, more collective and communal vision for the country.
A soul search is by definition virtually the opposite of this process - soul searching is looking inside for your own deep convictions. Talk/listen/argue is an engagement process that reaches out. I think they've done enough soul searching, agreed.
I have to say that I don't agree that the left broadly failed in this 3 years. If they had managed to oust National after only one term, after a landslide victory to Key, it would have been an incredible achievement. As it was, the election is held by a matter of a few votes, that's a remarkable accomplishment too, although I think most of that was an own-goal by Key giving Winston his resurrection.
I'm not actually sure whether Goff's head on a plate would be quite the thing Labour need now. I got the impression he's finally learning how to land blows on Key. If there's anyone who really is natural at that, though, let them come forth!
-
Sacha, in reply to
you totally misread my words
Sorry, not in any way intentional. You seemed to be moving from a discussion of 'the left' to an in-depth examination of the Labour party. That they are not the same thing seems highly relevant (even though I appreciate clarity about responsibility) - but please do elaborate on how what you said is completely different. I obviously missed something.
-
For me, the key message is to get started on the work now, and keep at it- not in grand ways, but as many small ways as possible.
It's like unionism, in that respect. I understand people feeling the unions haven't done a lot for Labour. But kicking them off the bus seems wrong. The unions haven't done a lot for themselves in NZ lately, because they are mostly a lot smaller and weaker than they were.
At a local level in my union (TEU) the paid (part-time) organisers are very busy- and all the rest of the work is done by volunteers- generally the same small group of volunteers.
Expanding that engagement is hard in good times. I suspect- I fear- the engagement will go up considerably in the next three years, and we'll see a lot more militant unionists- and union-bashing. -
Ian Dalziel, in reply to
a good long duuump...
Like I say, parallel universe where the normal laws of time and money appear not to exist.
No, no, I'm sure it is an actual perpetual motion funding device... honest!
Much like last years economagical profits and losses of asset 'sales' (dams n stuff) between State owned power companies
-
Yeah, enough of the soul-searching :) Save that for idle moments.
I’m not actually sure whether Goff’s head on a plate would be quite the thing Labour need now. I got the impression he’s finally learning how to land blows on Key. If there’s anyone who really is natural at that, though, let them come forth!
Amen! Strong, coherent rhetorical opposition in the house would be bloody lovely.
-
The average MP does about 4 terms, so every 4th seat on the list should be a fresh face; then no matter how many you lose or gain you've always got proportional untainted faces. Ideally the older MPs should be retired from the list to marginal electorates, and they can stay as long as they hold them. Makes for an automatic clean-out every time you score badly.
But selling the dams to the retirement fund and ACC is just fiddling the books. Net loss of government assets in exchange for temporarily lower debt increases; they're just selling their foreign shares of big companies rather than the dams. Which would be awesome if they'd invest it in something better than irrigation at about 1-2% return.The Greens may be able to help them there, fortunately. Renewables, FTW.
-
Kumara Republic, in reply to
I’m not actually sure whether Goff’s head on a plate would be quite the thing Labour need now. I got the impression he’s finally learning how to land blows on Key. If there’s anyone who really is natural at that, though, let them come forth!
Goff is likely to step down as Labour leader, but he could still remain on its front bench in a mentor role for the new broom.
-
You seemed to be moving from a discussion of ‘the left’ to an in-depth examination of the Labour party. That they are not the same thing seems highly relevant (even though I appreciate clarity about responsibility) – but please do elaborate on how what you said is completely different.
Because the Greens don't need to do any soul searching: they did really well! The Mana Party likewise. The left actually did reasonably well overall. The Labour Party did badly though. So if there's anyone that needs to think about what happened and why, it's the Labour Party. And it is important not to start fretting about the `left'. The left's just fine. It's the Labour Party that's in trouble.
-
Sacha, in reply to
Thanks.
-
(And more importantly, if there's anyone that needs to start engaging, it is the Labour Party. The campaign for 2014 starts now, and if Labour works like it did in the last few weeks, it is winnable. If they work like they did for the past few years, it isn't.)
-
Stephen Judd, in reply to
I think the current method of regional lists followed by secret conclave doesn't work, and can't work.
Amen.
I'm not sure how, given Labour's current constitution, reform could be achieved, but I am all for it.
However, note that even the Greens struggle with this. All NZ parties are structured such that incumbents can protect their positions.
Post your response…
This topic is closed.