Hard News: Debating Clydesdale
136 Responses
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Is it true polynesians inclusive of maori are over represented in the prison and procreation stakes while being under represented in the white collar and education achivement sectors ?
Of course. You don't need a phd to see that. The question is why ?
Brownbashing and muckraking in a election year is par for the course but how about addressing the real cause of a pasifikan problems instead...institutionalised racism and cultural elitism ?
I'm afraid it's gonna take more than one generation removed from even acknowledging that before the playing field is level. Besides the system needs an underclass to do all the shit jobs.
How convenient polynesians fit that bill so easily and that in order to succeed by euro/nz standards we have to sellout our culture and confrom to standards which are unsustainable in the wider global sense.
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re Yulia :
What the article doesnt mention is that Glyn copied the thread into a PDF, edited it so that it looked like Will Edmond was making posts saying he was going to spike underaged girls drinks so they could be raped at his gigs, and then sent it to The Press.
sad really, in a desperate look at me fail in public kind of way...
...whats next, a fake breakdown ???
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He (Clydesdale) will be an interview guest on Kim Hill's Saturday morning show (National Radio) tomorrow. A pity he didn't appear on Media7 as well.
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Should we really lynch someone for pointing out the obvious - that some people emigrate to New Zealand and lean on the system, while having nothing to offer in return.
Shouldn't we challenge that state of affairs?
Shame on people for labelling someone a racist just for stating the facts.
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some people emigrate to New Zealand and lean on the system, while having nothing to offer in return.
Shouldn't we challenge that state of affairs?
We're all about the challenges bro so I'm gonna challenge your state of affairs and your ' nothing to offer' fact.
Everyone has worth and can add value. It's just a bit of shame the only real equal opportunities shown for us were in sports and entertainment. Up until about 20 yrs ago anything beyond that was virtually a closed shop, except of course for the 'jobs for the underclasses.'
Maybe the study should have been 'NZ deliberately creates polynesian underclass to cater for unskilled employment market'
Never mind the fact that polynesians have been coming here on evidence for about 700 yrs so it's not like emigration as such. More like moving to greener pastures but still within our traditional homelands.
We didn't ask to be colonised and discriminated against in the employment and education sectors. Denied equal opportunity, assimilated into foreign cultural practises and still expected to thrive.
But you had your best shot and this 'clydesdale' study is the last gasp of a dying class. 2 more generations and we'll be running things again. We'll have assimilated you into our mindset and worldview and NZ will once again be defined by a polynesian identity and culture.
What you dont realise is we got time on our hands. We operate to a different clock. Yeah, maori time or island time if you will, but we see ourselves as the continuation of a stream of consciousness that stretches back millenia as opposed to the sum total of experience within a lifetime or two. We have patience, we can wait.
The battle is for cultural supremacy. Transplanted foreign euro vs indigenous polynesian. Forget the racial stuff. Thats just more divide and conquer colonial bullshit. We are colonizing your minds and most of you are too ignorant or in denial to know it.
POLYNIZATION y'all, get down with the brown !!!
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I agree you are polynising our minds...
It seems if anyone criticises anyone Polynesian they get lambbasted in the public arena.
It's okay for you to insult British descendants and accuse us of things our ancestors did, but look at it another way:
Everyone is an invidivual. People vary a lot when it comes to education, how they raise their children, what types of jobs they have, etc. However, if a lot of a race are unemployed, or work but are lazy, or beat the hell out of their children, you say we can't criticise you for that?
How un PC of someone to dare challenge another's culture.
Your cultural imperialisation is working anyway, so have fun.
You can get kids to say karakias in public schools that don't allow praying in English.
You brainwash tertiary students into feeling shame for their ancestors' colonisation of the country, and tell them that Maori supremacy is the only option, or even separatism; the last course I did the lecturer said the Maori wanted their own separate parliament.
With all the people that move to South Auckland and sit around on the dole, before they discover gangs and P, someone has to speak out.
European immigrants don't do that.
I know there are smart Polynesians, who work, who raise their kids well, etc. No one's saying you're all bad apples. Someone is, however, saying that a lot of you are.
Since we can't challenge your culture and get away with it, I suggest you fix the problems yourselves. First of all you have to admit there are problems.
Being a dole bludger surely is against your real culture anyway.
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The haughty American nation makes the Negro clean its boots and then proves the moral and physical inferiority of the Negro by the fact he is a bootblack.
George Bernard Shaw.
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Clydesdales walks along the beach at night?
Well we've found the connection between him and Lockwood Smith. Anyone got the footage of Lockwood Smith prancing on the beach in speedos?The only data I recall being discussed was how Clydesdale counted 15yr olds as Skilled Labour, which they clearly aren't - they're family. Pretty serious flaw.
He backs his paper up with stories about the Beatles & how Ringo played chess. Um WTF?
He goes on to point out HIS GRADUATES DON"T GET JOBS!
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Everyone is an invidivual.
European immigrants don't do that.
Good luck getting people to go trip-trapping over your bridge there, Simon.
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we see ourselves as the continuation of a stream of consciousness that stretches back millenia
The Maori call that Te Taura Tangata, the Great Rope of Man. The collective consciousness. I like the thought of that, very much.
With all the people that move to South Auckland and sit around on the dole, before they discover gangs and P, someone has to speak out.
Someone has to speak out? You think that you're the only palagi to speak of dolebludging, and useless bloody brown people? Come on now, Simon. There are alot of shouting voices out there saying exactly the same thing, so you can't possibly think you're the only one.
And, I might add, as a person who works in South Auckland, I find that statement highly offensive. As a person who teaches the children of first and second generation Pacific Island families, I find your entire post offensive, and highly ignorant to boot. I teach 90 children every day from Pacific Island families, of mixed socioeconomic status. I owe my love of teaching to these people, to people who trust me with their children, and make me one of the family. Who accept me for who I am. Because I extend them the same courtesy. One would think that they would treat me as an outsider in their midst but they have embraced me as one of theirs. Where I teach, at my kindergarten, we have statements of teaching practice that encompass what we hold dear. One of the things we talk about is the importance of being able to hear another's story without judgement. I suggest you try it, without the hindrance of generality or fear. You might learn something.
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I agree you are polynising our minds...
and lets not forget strengthening your genepool as well
It seems if anyone criticises anyone Polynesian they get lambbasted in the public arena.
yeah of course. Especially if they use pseudo science, flawed statistics and an obvious cultural bias to do it.
It's okay for you to insult British descendants and accuse us of things our ancestors did, but look at it another way:
Everyone is an invidivual. People vary a lot when it comes to education, how they raise their children, what types of jobs they have, etc. However, if a lot of a race are unemployed, or work but are lazy, or beat the hell out of their children, you say we can't criticise you for that?
Its so Handy when you can manipulate the the education system to lower self esteem amongst an indigenous population and produce a success rate needed to keep the unskilled labour market topped up especially if you can legislate it for generations and then measure the success of it by differing cultural standards.
You brainwash tertiary students into feeling shame for their ancestors' colonisation of the country, and tell them that Maori supremacy is the only option, or even separatism; the last course I did the lecturer said the Maori wanted their own separate parliament.
The brain washing, if it exists outside your mind, is to produce some colour back into a system thats been white washed for centuries. Maori supremacy isnt the only option. Separatism is just racist jibber jabber by a fed up and disgruntled minority within polynesia. I think self determination is a better word or is that 2 words ? And yes maori back in the day had their own gov't and bank which was manipulated and ultimately undermined by the british colonial one.
With all the people that move to South Auckland and sit around on the dole, before they discover gangs and P, someone has to speak out.
European immigrants don't do that.
Hahaha... take your p and drugs and alcohol and get the fuck outta Sth Aux. Talk about cointel pro down under.
I know there are smart Polynesians, who work, who raise their kids well, etc. No one's saying you're all bad apples. Someone is, however, saying that a lot of you are.
Oh you mean, theres lots of house niggas and uncle toms willing to play good for the massa to sleep in the big house and eat the crumbs of the table ?
Since we can't challenge your culture and get away with it, I suggest you fix the problems yourselves. First of all you have to admit there are problems.
oh wer'e fixing and we know what the problems are but like i said its gonna take a generation or 2. All in gods good time bro.
Being a dole bludger surely is against your real culture anyway.
yeah we didn't have dole back in the day but if you gonna give out money for lying around doing fuck all we're gonna take it. We aint stupid.
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Link to podcast of Clydesdale on Radio NZ this morning: http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/sat/sat-20080607-1005-Greg_Clydesdale_Immigration,_The_Beatles_and_Bach-048.mp3
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Cheers Sacha. Just listened and laughed the whole way through. If only he were smart enough to realise he was getting a new arse ripped by Ms Hill I'd give his study some creedence...
...but alas, stupid is as stupid does. Kudos for having the nuts to put his views out there though.
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"yeah we didn't have dole back in the day but if you gonna give out money for lying around doing fuck all we're gonna take it. We aint stupid."
I think that was Clydesdale's point.
Thanks for the confirmation.
It is bad for the country to import thousands of bludgers.
It should be you have to have skills to offer, or you can stay where you are. The only exception being refugees. We've got to help people in need.
We just shouldn't spoon-feed layabouts.
And no, it is not a racial thing. We should treat everyone by the same standards. Lazy people from all races and creeds who think they can move here then just bludge off the country should be told to stay put.
Then we can at least only have our own lazy people to complain about.
This is not a racial issue, stop making it one dub.
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And Jackie, in response,
I am not a racist.
Many of you on this forum are decying Clydesdale as being racist, however, a country that wants to have a good economy should limit the amount of people moving here to bludge.
If they plan to work, then great.
You're all so confounded by the racial issue you can't see past your own noses.
It's not about race; it's about not letting people rip you off. Wherever they're from.
And my comments about P and gangs is not a racial one. The fact that South Auckland has the worst crime rate in the country has nothing to do with the fact that you like your job and the kids you teach.
Facts speak louder than the thought police.
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Simon could you please site some evidence to debate?
The main issue with Clydesdale is that he hasn't done that. He doesn't back himself with facts.
The Beatles don't cut it as facts, and his facts have failed all three NZ academic reviews!
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This is not a racial issue, stop making it one dub.
Wasn't Clydesdale originally talking about Polynesian immigrants?
Sounds like a racial issue to me.
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It's snowing in Christchurch :) Yay
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Simon, you may not be coming at this from a racist perspective, but I'd say Clydesdale is. He talks about cultural similarity as if all cultures should be the same as his one (which I have a hunch is not Pacific). He is also simply academically sloppy as others have discussed. There's room for sensible debate about immigration and national productivity.
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"yeah we didn't have dole back in the day but if you gonna give out money for lying around doing fuck all we're gonna take it. We aint stupid."
I think that was Clydesdale's point.
It should be you have to have skills to offer, or you can stay where you are. The only exception being refugees. We've got to help people in need.
No i think his point is that we as polynesians are stupid and the govt with it's immigration policies are as well. Do you think we should not take the dole if there are no jobs around as most of what we did traditionally as unskilled labour has now been taken over by 'clydesdales" graduates or over skilled imigrants whose qualifications aren't recognized ?
My mother was Samoan who came over on a scholarship to train as a nurse. She wasnt a refugee but by your exception she shouldn't have been allowed in ?..you're a funny guy !
I think it's worse for the country to import western cultural elitists and foster them within academia and the business sector at the expense of developing polynesian potential.
The other thing is the change in attitude between my mothers generation and NZ born pasifikans who have been minced up by the education system to believe they're stupid when in actuality its the system that culturally failed them.
Most of the bludging, p addicted, criminals you speak of have no faith in your system anymore. Why is that ?
We just shouldn't spoon-feed layabouts.And no, it is not a racial thing. We should treat everyone by the same standards. Lazy people from all races and creeds who think they can move here then just bludge off the country should be told to stay put.
Then we can at least only have our own lazy people to complain about.
And how do you judge a persons spoonfed layaboutness and laziness ? Maybe a question on the immigation form.
"Does your race have a propensity towards laziness "
or how about
" Are you willing to be judged solely by one european standard"
So who exactly are your own lazy people ?
This is not a racial issue, stop making it one dub.
...it's about not letting people rip you off. Wherever they're from.
Like i said, it's about culture. Race has little to do with it. And yeah funny you should talk about not getting ripped off considering how much indigenous people have been ripped and by whom
Any suggestions on what we should do there ?
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Three replies:
Cheyenne: I just heard about this issue today when Kim Hill interviewed him on National Radio. However, do I need to prove to you there are lots of unemployed people, gangs and drug-abusers in South Auckland? If so, I can probably dig up some proof. I thought it was common knowledge. If Clydesdale is trying to suggest we need to address our immigration policy based on people's skills (not race), he may have a point. Silly that people are calling him a racist. I am sure his criteria for who should be allowed to move here is not a race-based criteria. No one's that daft anymore.
Sacha - See above answer.
Dubmugga - your cultural relativism has no place here. Economy is is a Western value, it is life itself. It is how we stay alive, providing food and shelter, etc for ourselves and our families.Despite your clap-trap about the Maori being ripped off, even though we saved them from cannabalism since they wiped out so many species of animals before Europeans got here, it affects you and me the same if we have to prop up people who come here with no intention to work.
In answer to your sarcastic question: no we do not put a question on the form, "Are you lazy?"
We ask, "What skills do you have?" If we don't need their skills, we already know there is no work for them here, then we say, "No thanks."
Doesn't the United States do that?
Why are you happy for people to come here just to live off your taxes? Or don't you pay them?
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Cultural relativism has every place being here. Its what your whole premise of race and racism is based upon. Its how clydesdale chooses to interpret the data and put forth his views. You seem to be clouding the issue with race.
Saved from cannibalism ? Oh please...you didnt save anyone and by our cultural values cannibalism wasnt wrong or evil. It too was governed by economics and religion. The west does not nor did it ever have a monopoly on economy and the value of life despite what history says.
Who exactly are these people who have no intention of coming here to work ? Those refugees that need saving ? Who and how do you vet them ? What criteria should we judge skills ? Solely by contribution to economic growth ? What about art, sport and cultural diversity ? Do you know what skills the market needs now and in the future ?
Bro, get your ass in gov't if you answered yes to more than 60% of the above.
As for why i am happy for people to come here and live off my taxes. (Yes even though i identify myself as Samoan, I do have a job and pay them. Its nice of you to infer i'm just another bludger though.) It's because we can afford it if we manage it wisely.
Do you want a rich peoples playground where natives are reduced to menial labour and cant afford to live on the land that was theirs to begin with but stolen ?
C'mon man, US policy on immigration is not something you should be holding up as a guiding light either, you funny guy you. Wetbacks and outsourced sweatshops anyone ?
And yeah best believe in times of trouble i would eat you :)
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Silly that people are calling him a racist. I am sure his criteria for who should be allowed to move here is not a race-based criteria. No one's that daft anymore.
You'd hope not, but the clue is that he has chosen to focus purely on Pacific migrants, not Asian or American or English or South African.
Culture is about ethnicity, not about the older concept of race. Belonging is the key, and Clydesdale raises interesting questions about the costs of negotiating belonging - but not enough about the benefits.
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Sacha - Doesn't he go after the Pacific migrants because they are causing the drain on society?
Or are the Asian migrants on the dole too?
Dub - not a rich people's playground, just a healthy economy.
So you've fallen for relativism. Kant's theory of Universal Law says that if something is right for one person, it is right for everyone else, and vice versa. That's the only rational basis for morality.
So you condone cannibalism. Also, you can't criticise female circumcision, sati, relegating women to the house and veil; and you can't criticise imperialism.
Hey, it's what my culture does man.
You should read Tim Flannery's The Future Eaters. He's balanced. All human beings, upon finding a new land (before other humans found it) wrecked the place. They wiped out many species of animal and damaged the ecosystem. And when there is a second-wave of colonisation, like in NZ and Australia, the second lot do even worse damage. We should have listened to your ideas about eco-management.
We can all help each other, if we listen to each other.
But relativism won't help you man.
That just lets you sit back while a guy beats his wife and say, 'It's his culture. They're stricter than us."
Only Universalism could lead to the abolition of slavery, the end of witch hunts, the emancipation of women and of colonised peoples.
If we were all bound to follow our own cultures, we'd all still be doing lots of stupid stuff.
I don't think it's great what the West are doing.
I do think that all people need to work together to form good economies, look after the planet, and more.
And yes, it is okay to tell another culture that cannabilism and slavery are morally indefensible.
Rise to the objective seat, bro.
Or be doomed to do whatever your heritage dictates.
Free mind or slave of customs, take your pick.
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Kant's theory of Universal Law says that if something is right for one person, it is right for everyone else, and vice versa.
Not sure if i agree with that but let me guess... Kant was an academically entrenched euro guy ? Things look different from the ivory towers across the other side of the world.
A healthy economy is fine but unsustainable in todays climate so lets not chuck the baby out with the bathwater. Especially if its our bath.
Cannibalism for whatever reasons had it's place back in the day. I'm not going to sit in moral judgment as to its relative merit today.
I have read future eaters.
Polynesians are some of the most resourceful and robust of peoples. We adopted whatever technology and implemented policies to whatever suited our situation, yes, sometimes at the expense of the environment. We still do. Some of us for sure are still slaves to custom enshrined in christian values and otherwise. Many of us have a free mind to make alternate informed choices.
If Clydesdale wants to make bold claims under the guise of academic study thats fine but he damn well better have his facts and reasons straight. I don't believe he has.
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