Hard News: Cultures and violence
464 Responses
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I see your link and raise you:
http://www.salon.com/2012/12/18/the_answer_is_not_more_guns/
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SteveH, in reply to
A friend on Facebook made the point that the US has 9 gun related deaths per 100,000 population, while there 13 suicides per 100,000 in NZ a year.
The US suicide rate is about 12 per 100,000. A friend of mine pointed out that about 90 people die per day in the US on the roads (which is also about 12 per 100,000). But these numbers are not much different to comparable countries, while
their gun-related fatality rate is a outlier: it's 4 times higher than ours and 9 times higher than Australia's. There is clearly something unusual causing that statistic.They’re not the same statistic. Neither do they have the same solutions, though they affect proportionately similar populations. But it does indicate the magnitude of suffering faced here. Before we start to feel like other countries are warped and bizarre, and we’ve got our shit sorted…
Well the US has almost the same suicide rate and a much higher gun-related fatality rate (note there is considerable overlap between those statistics). So they are still pretty warped and bizarre. Our overall suicide rate is not unusual; it's actually lower than countries like France, Sweden, Finland, and Japan. What is alarming is how high our youth suicide rate is, and the fact that it is increasing.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
So that explains why there were only 2 dead in Oregan last week, but the media being in favour of gun control hasn’t reported that.
Actually, James, the media haven’t reported it that way because it’s bullshit.
Oregon Live quotes the armed shopper, who confirms that he did train his gun on Jacob Roberts, but didn’t pull the trigger because he was worried about hitting bystanders – a possibly responsible decision indicating a fairly obvious flaw in the the right-wing “no one would die if everyone was armed” fantasy.
Roberts didn’t suddenly shoot himself before he was shot by an armed citizen. There’s no indication that he even saw Nick Meli pointing a gun at him in a crowded mall. Roberts just walked off, down a hall and down some stairs and then took his life.
But good try.
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Oh, FFS. Recent mass shooters are dressing in the best anti-ballistic armour they can get their hands on precisely because they are expecting to be shot at.
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BenWilson, in reply to
but didn’t pull the trigger because he was worried about hitting bystanders
Yup, and he may also have been concerned about drawing fire from an assault rifle onto himself. A mall is a wide open space, and a pistol is a close range weapon that leaps in the hand on every shot. An assault rifle pointed at you can fire concentrated bursts from a much larger magazine with almost triple the muzzle velocity of a handgun, so the hydrostatic shock alone can kill you.
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BenWilson, in reply to
That's a good link, thank you.
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Quentin Tarantino's had to pull the release of his new film: http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/film/8094915/Tarantino-premiere-cancelled
It's a good thing Peter Jackson had the foresight to omit the bit where all the hobbits rampage through the dwarf school with machine guns and flame throwers.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
Meanwhile, my son is seriously pissed off about the video-game-blaming around Newtown.
He sent me these two links with the comment “This just feels like an insult to both games and the people we lost.”
Mob Blames Mass Effect for Shooting, is Embarrassingly Wrong
Fox News Tries to Tie TV, Facebook and Gaming to CT Tragedy
Yet another case of the "video games made him do it" defence. Again, I mentioned upthread Karl du Fresne invoking the same thing about Anders Breivik.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Daughter’s link:
The last three paragraphs:
It’s not racist or sexist to suggest that white men are struggling with a loss of power in this country. I’m not demonizing white men, many if not most of whom probably don’t feel powerful and in control. But the fact remains that in this country white men have long ruled–in public and private life. They continue to dominate government and media even as the nature of families and private life has evolved over time. No one likes to lose power. Losing power is hard and unpleasant, frightening and disorienting.
But distributing power equitably is important. It’s a change we can seek to understand, openly discuss and facilitate, or we can ignore and exacerbate harm.
This violence is a public health crises. Other countries understand the vital importance to society of understanding gender constructions, but ours is mind-numbingly resistant. We really, really need to do this if we hope to understand how to stem this hemorrhaging of life. Pretending that hyper-gendered cultural pressures and entitlements that are part of boys becoming “real man” aren’t critically significant to these mass shootings, and to the everyday gun deaths in this country, is the national crime.This is a more able version of the column Megan linked to, derisively, above. The author still can’t quite say the obvious: that a significant number of the perpetrators of rampage killings, especially in schools, look like victims of those “hyper-gendered cultural pressures".
Like the Columbine shooters, Lanza was a retiring, bullied geek who probably projected his own self-hatred. Like the Virginia Tech shooter, he appears to have had the additional challenge of an autism spectrum condition.
Megan, you’re my friend, but I had to stop myself replying to what you said on Twitter about that column, in part because I know you’ve had young, male violence right in your face in a terrible way this week.
But for you to dismiss the idea of empathy for fearful, loser kids because they possess “immense privilege” just made me furious. It’s everything that makes me angry about the use of the concept of privilege. You have privilege, I’ve got it in spades. I think we should be very, very careful of attributing it to the kid in the photo in the link above.
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James Bremner, in reply to
RB, the article at your link doesn't say whether the shooter saw the guy or not. Be interested to know where the WSJ guy got his info from, he seemed pretty definitive. But it has been reported that Lanza offed himself when he heard cops arriving, so he fits the description of the cowardly shooter that the WSJ article I linked to refers to.
" the right-wing “no one would die if everyone was armed” fantasy."
A load of bollocks, to be sure, and one I subscribed to for a long time to until I thought about the issue a bit more.
You only need a handful of people to have a concealed weapons license and be carrying a weapon, a few percent of the population, so there would be a decent chance that one of those people would be in a mall or other populated place and be able to intervene if a shooter turned up. Retired cops & military, hunters etc, there are a lot of people around (in the US) who know how to handle a weapon.
And yes, hitting bystanders is a huge issue, and some of these nuts wear ballistic armor, but if you could wing a guy or tie or slow him down until the cops you arrive you will save a lot of lives. Every minute is valuable in these situations.
There is no perfect solution to this problem. No one ever suggested there was. But passing laws that many will ignore (they are crazy) or creating a make believe world of gun free zones and leaving people defenseless when there are crazies and guns (and always will be) doesn't seem like a hell of a good idea either. -
Islander, in reply to
From the civil rights and feminist movements of the 1960s and onward, young men – and young white men in particular – have increasingly been asked to yield what they’d believed was securely theirs.
That comment - and the viscerally disgusting Bushmaster tripe - make me sad, feel helpless - and seriously worried about portions of our world (more so than before...)
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Here are some facts from The Atlantic Wire
The take home- over time Americans have been disarming, but those keen on guns have been more than making up the difference in sales. -
SteveH, in reply to
You only need a handful of people to have a concealed weapons license and be carrying a weapon, a few percent of the population, so there would be a decent chance that one of those people would be in a mall or other populated place and be able to intervene if a shooter turned up.
The problem with your argument is that the US already has the highest rate of gun ownership in the world. Most states already allow concealed weapons. What you are proposing is already in practice, yet it is clearly not eliminating these incidents. Rather than continuing to promote increasing levels of gun ownership, perhaps instead it is time to try the tactics that have been proven to work in countries such as Israel and Japan?
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Danielle, in reply to
I think those two columns are arguing different things, and no, one is not a "more able" version of the other. The one Megan linked to argues that "because resources are limited, gains for women and minorities necessarily equal losses for white males". Which is such a bizarrely adversarial way of looking at life that I don't really know how to respond to it. The one Ross links to argues that "ideas about whiteness and maleness... are imbued with an innocence and authority that makes it almost impossible to critically talk about them" and that the redistribution of power is something we should "seek to understand, openly discuss and facilitate, or we can ignore and exacerbate harm". Chemaly's talking about discussing what's happening more openly; she isn't giving these guys carte blanche to rage at everyone around them because women got the vote, which I think the Wampole piece comes dangerously close to saying.
(I think it's also probably useful to cut people a little bit of slack - this week, at least - for being viscerally angry with and not-so-empathetic for the problems of a dude who gunned down a bunch of six-year-olds. Because: Jesus fucking Christ, you know?)
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It’s not racist or sexist to suggest that white men are struggling with a loss of power in this country. I’m not demonizing white men, many if not most of whom probably don’t feel powerful and in control. But the fact remains that in this country white men have long ruled–in public and private life. They continue to dominate government and media even as the nature of families and private life has evolved over time. No one likes to lose power. Losing power is hard and unpleasant, frightening and disorienting.
For this well educated, wealthy, and comparatively powerful woman, class is apparently just not something worth discussing when it comes to power relations.
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Crikey editor-at-large Guy Rundle's latest, furious column is sadly hidden behind a paywall, but it's worth excerpting a couple of key paragraphs. (It's also worth subscribing to Crikey too, as it happens). He calls the latest incident a "pivot point in wretched gun debate".
Some key quotes:
There is no doubt that something has changed with this massacre, for obvious, if irrational reasons. This was the first large-scale primary school massacre in the US by a young person (rather than a disgruntled teacher), and the pull of guilt at a society's failure to protect its own children has become a powerful force against the homilies of the gun lobby. There was a similar sort of feeling at the time of the Columbine massacre, but less strong, even though the prospect of a teenager facing a violent and immediate death -- with the full knowledge of imminent extinction and a life missed out on -- seems equally horrific.
To continue the old "guns don't kill people, people do" shtick in the wake of all this, now seems not clever or persuasive, but obscene and obtuse. Subsequent events seemed to confirm that society was, in this respect, spinning out of control; on Sunday, a morning church service in Newtown's St Rose of Lima church had to be abandoned when bomb and gun threats were phoned in. The Huffington Post is now running a whole series of reports on individual murders here and there, to show the absolute carnage in a country, where nowadays you have to hit double figures to make an impact.
But more importantly:
Indeed a lot of the arguments that "there is nothing to see here" are spurious. It’s argued that the number of massacres hasn't gone up since the '20s. But in the '20s many of these massacres were "rational crime" -- they were either large family or clan feuds, gangsterism or the like. Much of this stuff now goes unreported. What passed for a massacre in the 20s, is Saturday night in Philadelphia now.
What has come out of the blue are stranger and semi-stranger massacres, which were almost unknown before World War II. Since Charles Starkweather, the killing of whole classes of people simply because they are co-workers, McDonald's patrons or school students has gone through the roof. In their rush to defend guns, the gun lobby ignore this important shift.
It's seriously worth tracking down, Rundle's anger is marshalled and absolutely on target (no pun intended).
Also, someone at Democratic Underground has compiled some of the best editorial cartoons in the wake of the shooting. The second one is simple, obvious, but undeniably powerful.
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andin, in reply to
make believe world of gun free zones and leaving people defenseless when there are crazies
I love it when people say we're living in make believe worlds. We live in societies of our creation. They are not immutable!
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Ana Simkiss, in reply to
that a significant number of the perpetrators of rampage killings, especially in schools, look like victims of those “hyper-gendered cultural pressures”.
Well said Russell. Privilege is not the issue to focus on.
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DexterX, in reply to
Here are some facts from The Atlantic Wire
Action - 0: Number of concrete things President Obama has done to keep guns off streets that White House press secretary Jay Carney could name in a press conference Monday.
John Lennon, Martin Luther King, Kennedy, Gabrielle Giffords, - across America 30 people die from gun violence each day - around 200 a week - 11,000 a year.
Notwithstanding "Newton" it is alot of people to die because there is no will to find a solution to the over abundance of guns.
With all my heart I trust that will change. A legacy of substance - a future without such incidents - gun violence becoming a distant experience in the collective memory of America.
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BenWilson, in reply to
Regarding the Second Amendment and it's amazing ability to ensure the freedom from tyranny, it's worth noting that Tunisia, with the lowest rate of gun ownership in the world, overthrew it's tyrannical government 2 years ago.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
I think those two columns are arguing different things, and no, one is not a “more able” version of the other. The one Megan linked to argues that “because resources are limited, gains for women and minorities necessarily equal losses for white males”. Which is such a bizarrely adversarial way of looking at life that I don’t really know how to respond to it.
Sorta. The words you’ve quoted, inside quote marks, do not appear anywhere in the column you’re quoting. On the other hand, Chemaly does actually say:
Losing power is hard and unpleasant, frightening and disorienting.
And Wampole does actually say:
Can you imagine being in the shoes of the one who feels his power slipping away? Who can find nothing stable to believe in? Who feels himself becoming unnecessary?
You wrote (sorry, don’t mean to sound finger-pointy, just keeping attributions in order):
she isn’t giving these guys carte blanche to rage at everyone around them because women got the vote, which I think the Wampole piece comes dangerously close to saying.
Except she doesn’t say that, or anything really like it. She also does not say “it’s the girls’ fault.”
I think the Wampole column is pretty flawed, and dumb in parts, but I also like people talking about empathy, which she does throughout.
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Lest we forget what the adults in control want their nation’s kids to grow up and do…
A soldier sets out to graduate at the top of his class. He succeeds, and he becomes a drone pilot working with a special unit of the United States Air Force in New Mexico. He kills dozens of people. But then, one day, he realizes that he can’t do it anymore.
and
The impact of America’s drone war in the likes of Pakistan and Yemen will linger on, especially for the loved ones of the 178 children killed in those countries by U.S. drone strikes.
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Now the author of the thoughtful NZ blog Autismandoughtisms has been dragged into it all because some of her posts have been taken out of context.
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And this won't work either.....
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