Hard News: Complaint and culture
325 Responses
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Russell Brown, in reply to
She was framed explicitly from the outset as an angry woman.
Does it occur to you that that might actually have been all Chisholm had to work with? It is not her job to make someone look good when they weren't.
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Sacha, in reply to
Yes that's quite possible. It just fits a pattern in the article, and broader.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
Damn straight, all other things being equal, formula is second best. But it’s second best, not bloody poison. In a first world country, where our parents are literate, and our access to potable water excellent, there is NOTHING WRONG WITH FORMULA.
Whereas there's a lot wrong with guilt-tripping women who don't follow the baby script because they're fucking morons brainwashed by Big Formula or something. You know Ross, I've got a hobby horse of my own in this race because I know women whose experience of pregnancy (and multiple miscarriages in one case) was traumatic enough without being treated like idiots or monsters.
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I thought the story in the Listener a couple of years ago was more interesting and nuanced: Another unfortunate experiment? despite the title. It seems to identify what the real problem is, and outline one possible solution.
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Craig. My Mum likes me and doesn't think I treat my family or friends as idiots or monsters. As I mentioned I too have had life experiences that I wouldn't wish on anybody so I think I can still have an opinion.
and multiple miscarriages in one case
Touche.
Manslashing or whatever the phrase was included. It is never meant to be. I have found you have to be very careful with your language here because of the between the lines reading.
I've been flamed and it is hot here at the moment. I have not called women cows either.
I have a vet acquaintance whose partner was having difficulty breastfeeding and lactating. They were at their wits end until he realised he could put his vet skills and experience to use, Problem solved within hours.
I was pointing out that there is not much difference in _physiology_ between cattle and humans. Male or female. (Otherwise the biology I have learnt has been a waste of time.) If that fact was accepted people might like to consider some of the crazy things we do when we try and believe that we are some kind of "higher" animal. As far as I can tell, we exhibit all the good and bad of the animal kingdom but we are (or should be, according to some) capable of thinking about our actions and consequences. How we try to do the best for our kids is included.
Now.....to be off on holiday for a few days....great.
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Sacha, in reply to
Thanks. That Listener article is much more like it, and quotes some of the leaders in the area - recommended read.
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there's a suckle born every day...
Ask any farmer – sheep or dairy, and tell them to wean their future profit on substitute milk. They would laugh you off the paddock.
Er, ooh, ahh, that's Beastfeeding u r talking about!
field workers...
peer review
I alway's thought that that was when someone
(just like the author) looked at it from a long way away... -
JLM, in reply to
As someone attending parenting and breastfeeding classes with my wife, reading parenting books and buying a bewildering array of post-natal gadgets, I really don’t see this at all. The overwhelming message is pro-breastfeeding.
Which is good, to a degree, because there’s a lot of empirical evidence in its favour. But the differences aren’t mortal – the majority of the population over the age of 30 was formula fed, they’re not limbless vegetables. And many women have huge problems breastfeeding, so the message that this failure means they’re destroying their children’s lives isn’t that helpful. Especially since stress impacts on the milk production cycle.
The last sentence is the key. When you (well, I, anyway) are stressed, anxious or in pain, the oxytocin production that makes the milk flow out of the ducts is inhibited. Kid sucks, not much milk, unsettled, doesn't suck enough to "order the next meal" (can't remember what that hormone is called). Vicious circle ensues.
I didn't know about this when I was breastfeeding, but I did know that when I went home to visit my mum all of a sudden I had milk to spare. I didn't connect that I was away from certain things at home that were making me anxious.
Thirty years ago I hated the mystique around breastfeeding, lost my temper in public with a la leche leader who was extolling it as "so easy" and an aid to bonding, but was still grimly determined to do it, and managed to twice by some rather strange stratagems. Back then my concern was health, but I don't think that would be such an issue for me now after the first few weeks. There does seem to be a negative dose response effect as far as duration goes with the biggest impact in the first weeks.
My concern now would be cost, hygiene (I'm not good at keeping things clean) and my post-apocalyptic tendencies. I worry about the impact of unforeseens such as earthquakes on formula availability, but more I worry that something that approximately 95% of new mothers are apparently technically capable of with the right support has become so fraught and difficult.
Before the last election, National had an election policy to increase breastfeeding rates, or similar. Has anyone noticed any initiatives?
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Breast feeding is great though eh? Like, it's just really really great.
Also, there may be problems with the system around midwifery that need to be addressed, but it goes without saying they're pretty freakin' great.
Anecdotal story here; someone (maybe my mother) was told not to breastfeed her first child for a couple of days so she could rest after giving birth (this was in the 60's). In hindsight she decided this was totally dumb and made her own choices with future kids. Of her 5 children this child (maybe my sister) was the only one with a multitude of allergies and severe asthma. That is only one case, and obviously not every formula feed baby is gonna to get asthma.
But seriously, is there that much pressure to breastfeed? If so, why do so many people not? And isn't breast milk heaps cheaper? And isn't it the least well off New Zealanders who would most benefit from more breast feeding? Both economically and health wise? Are they the least likely demographic to do so? (genuine question, I have no idea...seems likely). Isn't this the target of policy to encourage breastfeeding.
Obviously I know that I think breast feeding is good because I am middle class as fuck and eat organic soy bullshit and the liberal media taught me that nature is awesome.
No one should ever feel bad for deciding not to breast feed. It's their own business. But encouraging someone to do so is just totally freakin' great.
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Martin Lindberg, in reply to
Damn straight, all other things being equal, formula is second best. But it’s second best, not bloody poison. In a first world country, where our parents are literate, and our access to potable water excellent, there is NOTHING WRONG WITH FORMULA.
Funny, that's exactly what Shelley Bridgeman said and I believe the Herald had to close the comments for that piece.
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Deborah, in reply to
In amongst all the patronising and snark. I suspect that was why comments were closed, not because of a simple claim about there being nothing wrong with formula.
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A lot of the "breastfeeding worked fine for us, I'm sure if people just gave it a proper try they'd find it worked for them" rhetoric does start to sound a bit like "you should take up running, it worked wonders for me and thus will work fine for everyone."
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James Butler, in reply to
No one should ever feel bad for deciding not to breast feed. It’s their own business. But encouraging someone to do so is just totally freakin’ great.
Sure. The problem is the line between encouraging women to breastfeed, and shaming and obstructing those who can't, no matter how legitimate their reasons.
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James Butler, in reply to
Funny, that’s exactly what Shelley Bridgeman said and I believe the Herald had to close the comments for that piece.
Hmm, one might conclude that's what she was trying to say, if one were feeling charitable.
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Martin Lindberg, in reply to
"you should take up running, it worked wonders for me and thus will work fine for everyone."
I believe breastfeeding while running is the new trend.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
start to sound a bit like “you should take up running, it worked wonders for me and thus will work fine for everyone.”
And being a paraplegic is all in your head, no less. :)
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Repeat after me: Women are not cows. Women are not cows. Women are not cows.
Some women can breastfeed easily, produce more than enough milk, and are able to just carry on. Some women find producing enough milk very hard indeed, especially if they have other children to care for. Cows have nothing to do all day except eat, shit, and produce milk. Most women have to do far more every day than just eat and produce milk, because that's the way our modern society works. Then they get blamed and shamed and chided for not breastfeeding (for example, see some of the comments above), when what militates against it is not their feeble minds, but the structures of our society.
If we're going to get anecdotal about breast feeding and asthma, I breastfed my elder daughter, and bottle fed my younger daughters. My elder daughter doesn't have asthma, and neither do my younger daughters.
But encouraging someone to [breastfeed] is just totally freakin’ great.
Not when it comes with a huge dose of judginess about being a bad mother if you find that you can't breastfeed. And having been on the receiving end of it, I can tell you that I was made to feel hugely judged, and guilty, about not being able to breastfeed my younger daughters. And whaddayaknow, there's a couple of fabulous instances of judginess in this very thread.
Also, breast feeding doesn't necessarily cost less, because most mothers need to eat more higher protein food in order to be able to breastfeed. And plenty of mothers who would like to breastfeed can't, because they have to work, and their workplaces are not family friendly, at all.
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But encouraging someone to [breastfeed] is just totally freakin’ great.
Not when it comes with a huge dose of judginess about being a bad mother if you find that you can’t breastfeed.
Well of course. Was I being judgey? I don't think so. It certainly wasn't my intention. I just think breast feeding is great and it deserves repeating.
Also, breast feeding doesn’t necessarily cost less, because most mothers need to eat more higher protein food in order to be able to breastfeed.
I don't believe this to be a rational argument. If you can't breastfeed or don't want to that is none of my business, I wont judge you, never, no way. But I will question the validity of that as an argument for formula feeding.
OK I am leaving this thread. I am a man, I'm not sure I even have a valid say in these matters and my child is dancing to Belle & Sebastian and I wan to join in.
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B Jones, in reply to
If so, why do so many people not? And isn't breast milk heaps cheaper?
Breastfeeding is only free if women's time counts for nothing. When women have to go back to work after the 14 weeks' leave runs out, it gets so much harder. Exclusive breastfeeding means that baby and mum need to be together always - I used to think of the tubs of expressed milk in my freezer as preserved freedom - each one represented a night I could go out, or have more than one glass of wine. Acquiring them required half an hour of carefully timed work. Being able to transfer care to someone else is valuable, and not everyone can or wants to lose that option.
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B Jones, in reply to
Cows have nothing to do all day except eat, shit, and produce milk.
They also have four stomachs, one udder and lord knows how many teats on it (I'm a city girl). Pretty big physiological differences if you ask me. Also, if you're no good as a dairy cow at producing milk, there aren't a lot of other useful career options down on the farm.
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Breastfeeding is only free if women’s time counts for nothing.
Well of course not. I think you're maybe making some leaps between me think breastfeeding is great and your already established idea of how society views breastfeeding in general or something.
Let me be clear once again; I pass no judgment on what you or any other parent chooses to do. But I support encouraging breast feeding as the first choice. The concept of formula being a perfectly good second option is fine by me. AGAIN, no one should guilty or persecuted for making that choice. Once the choice is made, then great, what ever works in your life.
Thanks for correcting my structural error before too (breastfeeding; one word, I get it now).
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Deborah, in reply to
It's not an argument in favour of bottle feeding. It's just pointing out that cost is not necessarily a good argument in favour of breastfeeding. A bit like the convenience argument. People are fond of saying that breastfeeding is much more convenient than bottle feeding. Well, yes, if the mother is always in the same place as the baby. But sometimes that's wildly inconvenient, such as when the mother has to go to work. Like cost, convenience is probably not a great argument either way. I suspect that on both counts, breastfeeding is probably better, but they're not slam dunk arguments.
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Fair enough point.
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Deborah, in reply to
Ta. I don't think we're all that far apart on this issue.
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Danielle, in reply to
Some women find producing enough milk very hard indeed, especially if they have other children to care for.
I’m slightly antsy about this prospect with Pending Number Two. I know that in the first few months with Number One I was breastfeeding him about eight hours a day (he was a slow sucker). It was like a full time job – and I was under no particular stress and didn’t have to go back to an office or a factory, either. I can’t imagine how a lot of people manage.
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