Hard News: Bean-Counting the Beat
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Oh, and lost amid the general Budget punditry ...
The New Zealand Music Commission gets an additional $4.8 million in baseline funding over four years to do its work.
Given that the commission has subsisted on year-by-year funding since 2000, this is both welcome and significant.
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lecturing people on net etiquette
I didn't 'lecture' him on that point. I lectured him on the failings of hi system and his closed mind,
I mentioned as a ps at the end that in his in his effort to write an essay over the course of a week when he lost his homework once and delayed discussion and participation that you break it up into relevant spiels, if you can. a suggestion, the rest was a lecture,
thanks auntie jackie, for your concern.
you didn't notice anything else except for that. You think I had no other valid points to make? Good think you're not THE jackie clark of idol shame. -
sigh ... they were named and quoted in the booklets that came with the discs. I'm surprised a music historian wouldn't know that.
That's the best thing you can think to attack me on? I made some very valid and serious observations and all you can come up with is a sigh and 'I thought you would have read the cd sleeves and memorised them"
I'll go have a look, thanks for mentioning it. I doubt any mainstream programmer green lit some of those tracks, at least not the same mainstream programmers who routinely shut them down now.
look at it this way, as much as you hate what I have to say and the way I say it there's a swag on new information that we have not had in this thread.
Brendan admitted he was not directed by the act to give programmers power, that they pick the hit disc tracks now (assisted by radio), that their prime directive is culture and identity etc etc.
and your mention of disc covers, have you seen the new redesign?
There are no track listings on the outside of the cover. If you've got the disc in the player and want to know what track 10 is you have to either eject the dic and read it on the label or pull the booklet out of the slimline tray and locate it inside the sleeve. Slim line booklets being much more irritating to slide in and out.
They do however have a giant NZ on air logo on the outward facing page in the booklet, where customarily you would have the tracklistings for easy access, and I would have thought easy access was way up on the list so as not to piss off programmers delicate sensibilities. That's a free pointer for the hitdisc people. -
* most musicians and industry types take drugs,
I hope you're not referring to me.
interestingly contrary to popular belief a lot of the more productive ones aren't that fussed on drugs. That doesn't stop guest listers and hangers on consuming heaps around them
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And who did the APRA members pick? Brooke.
Will people look back in years to come and think of 'Albertine' as the sound of '07? Nope.
that was a really bizarre result. But apra silverscrolls are supposed to be voted results.
but then george bush was voted in, twice, allegedlyare you starting an apra dissing thread now?
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so you make no effort to reflect all the colours of that coat, to use your metaphor, you allow commercial radio's criteria to dictate the palette, there by failing at your role of reflecting 'nz identity'. essential practicing a form of discrimination.
You're saying you reflect NZ in your funding but really you fund only that which will fit into a narrow format.
I don't know why NZ music identity shouldn't be just as much about the music that fills the pop charts as any other country. Whatever NZ Idol and Popstars has produced, Brooke Fraser, OMC's big hit, The Feelers, OpShop (who I don't think I've even heard, but whoever they are). 'Bliss' is as much a part of our music history as any other song that Dave Dobbyn performs, no matter how much he hates being asked for it at gigs. The majority of NZers are following and buying that music, both locally made, and internationally and NZ on Air should follow that trend. Maybe some people want a NZ on Air that are music snobs and tell us that we should only listen to 'the good stuff', but I suspect then we'll be back down to commercial radio only playing 2% NZ music.
You completely failed to link your statements about this to Brendon's information about National Radio NZ and bnet etc. That's how they reflect all the colours of NZ's coat.
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__sigh ... they were named and quoted in the booklets that came with the discs. I'm surprised a music historian wouldn't know that.__
That's the best thing you can think to attack me on? I made some very valid and serious observations and all you can come up with is a sigh and 'I thought you would have read the cd sleeves and memorised them"
For goodness sake, I'm not "attacking" you. You just said you didn't believe something Brendan said, which, as far as I can recall, is a matter of record.
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For goodness sake, I'm not "attacking" you. You just said you didn't believe something Brendan said, which, as far as I can recall, is a matter of record.
attack in the best possible taste then.
it was the underlying attitude that I was commenting on as noted with the 'sigh'
what's with this "sigh" thing anyway? were you an only child?not that I take offense at any discussion on the internet, and neither should you.
perhaps a better way of making your point would have been to go and get your indie hit discs and list some of the names and who they were.
Brendan Stated that the hit discs were tracklisted by radio programmers pre 99. I wanted to make a distinction between commercial radio and b net/national radio. These people are not all the same.
When they killed indie hit disc in order to consume that budget towards the already gapping pit of appeasing commercial radio someone got cut out of the picture it would seem. -
I really struggle to understand why NZ music funding is such an issue.
While artists should be using all possible resources to get their music heard/consumed, there is no one fit model for all. when you plan how to get your music into the world you should use, but not rely on what seems to be overly complex and minimal value adding system. its like the people that jump through hoops with tax dodge finance/property schemes and end up making minimal savings that arent worth the effort expended.
yes its good to get some funding for local music. And yes I was passionate about the lack of kiwi music on the radio in the early nineties, especially since there was so much good kiwi music that was being missed by commercial radio because it was playing too safe.
However that has changed a lot, its not ideal, but it may never be. we are talking about commercial radio after all. If someone thinks they can make money with a country music station, then one will appear [and make gray bartlett a happy man....maybe], why moan about the lack of one? its like moaning that there isnt a good chip shop on the main street, either open one yourself, or shut up.
I may be proved wrong but Opshop and Brooke Fraser are exactly the sort of NZ records that don’t stand a shot outside NZ.
i thought part of the arguement was that we shouldnt be pandering to international tastes?
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my overall view is that you should be able to do what you do whether that means making money or doing it for the love, without relying on hand outs. use them, be thankfull they are there, appreciate that they may not benifit you, but do try to understand that the music industry is a place where different worlds exist ontop of each other. there will never be a solution that fits all realities here.Its like huffing and puffing at a paper plane when you could just grab the thing and throw it already.
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The Brunettes, The Ruby Suns, The Phoenix Foundation. And Cassette, Connan & The Mockasins, SJD, Dimmer...yawn bro yawn.
What about me ? It isnt fair. Iv'e had enough now i want my share. Can't you see. I wanna live but you just take more than you give.
Never so true a lyric was written about electronica and hiphop. For all BS justification and self congratulatory backslapping. It's still all a little back asswards looking and pandering to the safe crusty old tradition of boring indy styled lo fi guitar bands. I'm still not seeing the turnaround to a brighter future, an exit strategy from the invasion of mediocrity assulting our airwaves , anything that inspires me to think this is the guy to lead us into the digital age and i'm afraid for all his protestations i'm now more than ever convinced he is not.
When was an independent review made of NZoA policy and fulfilling the charter or performance review of personnell ?
Surely its time for one yeah ? I mean it's just too easy to count the beans, tick the boxes, write a report sayin we need more money to achive the goals and kick it upsatirs for someone to rubberstamp without anyone ever questioning if the process, institution and trusted bureaucrats aren't flawed to begin with.
And in that I could just as easily be talking about the music commish. 4.8 mill...Yeeehaaa !!! time for a raise, maybe hire one of their buddies and an extra junket trip to a music conference for said boring indy styled lo fi guitar bands.
Basic question is. Can the money be better spent, diagnosed for malaise then used to change the system for the better by transfusing it with new blood all the way through, from the outer extremities to the heart and soul of kiwi music ???
Yeah it can, but will it ??? Not if no one thinks the body corporate isnt sick or is in denial as to how sick it really is.
My question to Brendan then is if he has no shame in his game, would he welcome an indy review ???
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The Brunettes, The Ruby Suns, The Phoenix Foundation. And Cassette, Connan & The Mockasins, SJD, Dimmer...yawn bro yawn.
What about me ? It isnt fair. Iv'e had enough now i want my share. Can't you see. I wanna live but you just take more than you give.
Never so true a lyric was written about electronica and hiphop. For all BS justification and self congratulatory backslapping. It's still all a little back asswards looking and pandering to the safe crusty old tradition of boring indy styled lo fi guitar bands. I'm still not seeing the turnaround to a brighter future, an exit strategy from the invasion of mediocrity assulting our airwaves , anything that inspires me to think this is the guy to lead us into the digital age and i'm afraid for all his protestations i'm now more than ever convinced he is not.
I think you just jumped the shark. Have a self-serving whine if you must, but it's hardly necessary to slag off a group of artists who are actually getting noticed. Are you seriously saying that NZ On Air should not only ignore radio rock, but all forms of "boring" rock music? Including artists as complex and eclectic as SJD and Dimmer? (And, one would assume, Rob's bands?)
It's cool that you're got your stuff on Beatport et al, but you need to get a sense of proportion.
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without relying on hand outs.
They're not hand outs. they're an acknowledgment of the difficulty to produce art to a high standard in a country without the population base to support it and to be honest we kiwi's can be a tight bunch with our cash so we're not going to pay at the gate the price that it really costs to do these things, so we pay for it through taxes.
The reason funding is such an issue is that that money was given to NZers to deal with a specific issue. that our music was being kept off the airwaves, allegedly because of poor production standards. that money was to help us make better recordings and videos of our sounds.
The issue is that a commercial radio filter has been put on the lions share of that funding and funding focus.That is in direct contradiction to the mission statement and intent of the original charter.
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you completely failed to link your statements about this to Brendon's information about National Radio NZ and bnet etc. That's how they reflect all the colours of NZ's coat.
no i didn't. The lions share of funding goes to commercial radio interests, funing that which fits their format. that's what I'm discussing here and I did give props for bnet and especially national radio who are a tireless non discriminators giving a fair shake to most genres.
And kiwi is a bloody good station too.'Bliss' is as much a part of our music history as any other song that Dave Dobbyn performs,
true and if you were around at the time it came out you'd be hard pushed to hear it on the airwaves. what's your point?
I think the dudes are part of the kiwi sound.
are you saying you can't tell what makes us sound like us?
there are plenty of people overseas who recognise kiwi in their music. not everything fits into those stylistic things but you really should have a knowledge of and understanding of new zealandnesss if you're going to try an administer a fund who's stated aim is to address issues relating to broadcast of culture and identity.I'm not saying ever song funded should sound like dunedin jangle or chch dub, or ak punk, or wellington ....dub too, but you shouldn't have a system in place that filters them out because they aren't like everyone else on the radio, and you should have an acute awareness of what people have identified as us in the past and where those things t hat make us US are going in the future. sure you can't be right all the time but the impression is they're not even trying to address those issues.
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Its like huffing and puffing at a paper plane when you could just grab the thing and throw it already.
I like that analogy. I think it applies to NZ's attitude to radio, all kid gloves etc. put in a youth radio network or a legally enforced quota and see what effect that has.
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boring indy styled lo fi guitar bands.
you weaken your argument with comments like this.
they're just as hard done by through the current set up as electronica and hip hop.I'm still trying to focus my concerns about this issue and I've enjoyed the discussions of various ideas on it,
I think the keyest of key points is that there is a charter and it does say something specific, and its intent is something specific.
Someone who shall remain nameless but who's initials are BS has steered the ship in a direction not in keeping with that intent. I think that's pretty plainly seen, and as soft as simon and russells gloves re they've both raised issue with the method of funding.
it remains to be seen if BS is listening to anyone at all.
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__'Bliss' is as much a part of our music history as any other song that Dave Dobbyn performs,__
true and if you were around at the time it came out you'd be hard pushed to hear it on the airwaves. what's your point?
I'm not sure about 'Bliss', which was almost a posthumous release anyway, but I recall that 'Be Mine Tonight' did get played on the radio. And it really stood out. I can actually recall the first time I heard it (post-school holiday with my mates at Woodend Beach) and I thought, what the hell's that?
There was actually a brief period when the commercial network was still in public ownership and the ZM stations got more or less adventurous. I think even Toy Love got some play.
3ZM in Christchurch was really okay for a while. You could even take your demo tape in to Mark 'Mainline' Morgan and he'd play it on a Sunday night. You could just buzz at the door and go in and see the guy right there in the studio ...
I remember writing an indignant letter when ZM went "commercial" again.
I really think there was a sadly missed opportunity when some new frequencies were released in Auckland, and Blackie, Botica et al, put up money for 89FM, which was supposed to be a "real" music station. They hired some interesting on-air people, including Andrew Boak and a game lassie from student radio called Fiona Rae.
But they spent so much their lavish set-up that operating such a station was never really viable, they imported Australian radio consultants and it all got sucked back into the machine.
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completely acknowledged there have been some major exceptions to the rule in commercial radio.
darcy waldergrave in chch gave a massive boost to local awareness with his evening show. But then they shifted him to sports or some such thing. they guy still loves his music though, he's just not in a position not rock the boat on it.channel z was commercial radio and did wonders too.
Its all about the people in place. these were switched on good people doing great work, but they were the exception, not the standard state of play at any given time. -
*the guy still loves his music though, he's just not in a position to rock the boat on it*
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I think you just jumped the shark. Have a self-serving whine if you must, but it's hardly necessary to slag off a group of artists who are actually getting noticed. Are you seriously saying that NZ On Air should not only ignore radio rock, but all forms of "boring" rock music? Including artists as complex and eclectic as SJD and Dimmer?
Of course it's fucking neccessary. Those bands, possibly more so the complex and eclectic ones put me to sleep but thats a subjective thing.
Lets be objective. Weak argument ? Hard done by ? So tell me about this proportion stuff ? Bro, what is the most played and popular genre out there on radio ? Who just got signed to a worldwide deal and how ? Proportionally how does that genre get funded ? whos taking notice and serving notice ?
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I'm saying lose the narrow focus and stop making a token effort towards funding safe hiphop and electronica and looking at them as being the poor relation and get away from this radio only thing.
...for instance, what about the video funding aspect ?
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I’m not really coming from the same place that Rob or Dubmugga
although I admire dubmuggas drive my arguments have come from a more philosophical level so please do make a point of differentiating all critisims of the system as being the same. They're not.
Dubmugga me old scone, love that you love what you do, but I can't and don't agree with your logic and self serving approach.so lets have the more long winded "I'm not really coming from the same place as dubmugga, and I'm not prepared to say things as rudely as robbery is, something like that eh?
or would you like me to list you in with gray bartlett as an established member of the music community?
(not that there's anything wrong with Gray, hes just a passionate grumpy bugger) -
Just one thought. I reckon, from observation, that a substantial part of the radio audience only wants to hear songs that they've heard before. Mainstream radio knows this, and even if they aren't running a total oldies format, they keep the amount of new music they drop into the mix to a minimum.
I'm not sure what anyone can do about this, really.
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__you completely failed to link your statements about this to Brendon's information about National Radio NZ and bnet etc. That's how they reflect all the colours of NZ's coat.__
no i didn't.
Would it help if I put them all in one post?
Brendan said:
We don’t say New Zealand music is this or that or sounds like this or that; it is the music that New Zealanders make and, ipso facto, it reflects New Zealand culture and identity, which is a rich tapestry and a coat of many colours, as we all know.
You said:
so you make no effort to reflect all the colours of that coat, to use your metaphor, you allow commercial radio's criteria to dictate the palette, there by failing at your role of reflecting 'nz identity'. essential practicing a form of discrimination.
The statement "so you make no effort to reflect all the colours of that coat", clearly isn't true, because national radio, bnet, kiwi etc are clearly an effort to reflect.
You're giving all the impressions of frothing at the mouth.
__'Bliss' is as much a part of our music history as any other song that Dave Dobbyn performs,__
true and if you were around at the time it came out you'd be hard pushed to hear it on the airwaves. what's your point?
My point is, popular songs that will do well on the charts and in radioplay, and which are essentially local versions of music that could be produced by people overseas, is just as important to have 'on air', as unique NZ-only sounds.
The latest crappy winner of NZ idol is as much a part of our cultural identity as poi-e or Prince Tui Teka or Moana or anything else that is uniquely NZ. Brendan was quite clear that they're about getting all NZ music on air. The reason they work a lot with mainstream commercial music stations, is that that's what most NZers listen to, and that's the music that most NZers like. That's not being narrow, that's being relevant.
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so lets have the more long winded "I'm not really coming from the same place as dubmugga, and I'm not prepared to say things as rudely as robbery is, something like that eh?
ok, fair call, but I do have an issue with the hammer and tongs approach and I'm also broadly supportive of what NZoA has done historically and in particular Brendan. That's a fairly major point of difference
or would you like me to list you in with gray bartlett as an established member of the music community?
nah, not so, I'm happily on the edge looking in. I've always preferred it that way.
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Point taken but it's fairly bloody obvious I'm not from the same place as robbery and am as much offended to be lumped in with him as he with me :)
I don't want to distract and get into logic, philosophy or self serving motives cos thats subjective as well and it doesnt pay to question anybody's, does it ?
Objectively it's about getting more of NZ on Air but more of what NZ across the board want on air not just on radio and not just what the programmers want or the tastemakers at NZoA want and to reflect the changing times.
I'm just using hiphop and electronica and those bands held up as shining lights as an example of the narrow focus and easy manipulation of the funding go round if you're prepared to play the game without questioning who the rules favour.
I'll settle for an indy review across the board and leave my personal bias towards BS out of it.
Fair enough ?
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That's not being narrow, that's being relevant.
And it's also not being given any options. As the album charts and the Australian quota system indicates, the people often want and will accept more.
Radio worked out when the voluntary quota system was set up that there were ways to sidestep it. They've done a pretty good job of doing just that.
As Russell pointed out above, commercial radio can be great, adventurous and profitable...its a win all, and European and Uk radio has often played that game.
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