Hard News: Art and the Big Guy
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merc,
It's just that I've seen firsthand what pro surfing and QuikBongRip has done for what is the most beautiful act you can do on water and how the grommets and parents have been affected by the marketing hype, they're not called pro ho's for nothing. Plus alot of local surfers rip better than the pro's.
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Why do we subsidize the Americas cup?
wow, that's some segue.
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perfectly serious hadyn. when something intrinsically rewarding is changed to being extrinsically rewarding, the peasure diminishes.
don't believe me? try it some time. or google some of the literature on the topic.Bollocks. I love writing. I love it more when I get paid.
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money = love?
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Bollocks. I love writing. I love it more when I get paid.
Good one RB. On the subject of Art and royalties there seems to me to be some confusion. The original concept of protection of the rights of the person who conceived a new anything was to ensure that this anything could be enjoyed by all to the benefit of all rather than excellent ideas being hidden from the populace at large in case of exploitation.
So we have Patents,Trademarks,Copyrights etc.
and have had them for a good number of years,much longer than anyone reading or writing this thread and by and large they have worked.
To say that the collection of royalties would be difficult is a nonsense it is happening right now and has done for many years,I have had personal experience in calculating and paying the royalties due.
The difficulty with original works of art being sold at a higher price than the price paid to the artist is that we are not talking about a copy so copyright does not apply on the other hand we are certainly not talking about a product like baked beans.
It seems to me that if the desire was there to support an Artist during his lifetime by the payment of some portion of the increased resale value of his work then there are likely to be enough lawyers who could figure a way of ensuring that this could be done in an equitable and workable way.
A couple of instances that have worked well as far as copyrights are concerned are the Gilbert & Sullivan works which were very well controlled for 50 years after the death of G&S by the D'Oyley Carte Opera Co. who had the rights, and all Disney characters and any use of the original art in any shape or form on a world wide basis.Finally, even though a piece of graphic art such a a painting or drawing has been purchased the copyright belongs to the artist unless there is a written waiver of that right by the artist.
Ad. Agencies make quite sure that such a waiver is signed even though the models used have been paid.Finally to rugby the other topic in this thread maybe some of the legals that draw up the contracts for rugby players
(and the Americas Cup seeing as that has sneaked into the thread) could do some work on this in the off season. -
3410,
when something intrinsically rewarding is changed to being extrinsically rewarding, the peasure diminishes. don't believe me? try it some time.
Bollocks. I love writing. I love it more when I get paid.
I think Riddley's point is that it is often very difficult to "get paid" without compromising the integrity of the art. If you're able to, then good luck to you. Most of us have to choose one over the other.
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Finally, even though a piece of graphic art such a a painting or drawing has been purchased the copyright belongs to the artist unless there is a written waiver of that right by the artist.
Interesting, because both Wedding and "boudoir" photographers have clauses asserting their copyright despite you commissioning them to take the pictures. I thought it was just a rort to get you to buy all the prints through them, but I see what cunning bastards they are now ...
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Bollocks. I love writing. I love it more when I get paid.
[Eric B]: Yo Rakim, what's up?
[Rakim]: Yo, I'm doing the knowledge, E., I'm trying to get paid in full
[E]: Well, check this out, since Nobry Walters is our agency, right?
[R]: True
[E]: Kara Lewis is our agent
[R]: Word up
[E]: Zakia/4th & Broadway is our record company
[R]: Indeed
[E]: Okay, so who we rollin with?
[R]: We rollin with Rush
[E]: Of Rushtown Management. Check this out, since we talking over
this def beat that I put together, I wanna hear some of them
def rhymes, know what I'm sayin? And together, we can get
paid in full...[Rakim]
Thinkin of a master plan
Cuz ain't nuthin but sweat inside my hand
So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent
So I dig deeper but still comin up with lint
So I start my mission- leave my residence
Thinkin how could I get some dead presidents
I need money, I used to be a stick-up kid
So I think of all the devious things I did
I used to roll up, this is a hold up, ain't nuthin funny
Stop smiling, be still, don't nuthin move but the money
But now I learned to earn cos I'm righteous
I feel great! so maybe I might just
Search for a 9 to 5, if I strive
Then maybe I'll stay alive
So I walk up the street whistlin this
Feelin out of place cos, man, do I miss
A pen and a paper, a stereo, a tape of
Me and Eric B, and a nice big plate of
Fish, which is my favorite dish
But without no money it's still a wish
Cos I don't like to dream about gettin paid
So I dig into the books of the rhymes that I made
To now test to see if I got pull
Hit the studio, cos I'm paid in full -
[Eric B]: Yo Rakim, what's up?
[Rakim]: Yo, I'm doing the knowledge, E., I'm trying to get paid in fullThe remix that Eric B & Rakim Hated in Full....but they still took that large cheque.
I think Riddley's point is that it is often very difficult to "get paid" without compromising the integrity of the art.
Now playing on iTunes...totally coincidently..EB & R - Follow The Leader
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I think Riddley's point is that it is often very difficult to "get paid" without compromising the integrity of the art.
I'm not convinced. Especially because I was talking sport first.
If you're doing something that you like and then someone says "here's some money, keep doing that thing but at least now you'll be able to eat and stuff", how does that make you less happy? (currently too lazy to google stuff)
IF they start saying things like "here's some money, change what you're doing" then maybe it'd be less worth it.
I can understand Merc's point as well about the lure of proffesionalism, but if you don't roll the dice you'll never win. And that is a completely different discussion.
There is another tangential discussion about illusions too. You might follow your dream to be pro-surfer thinking it'll just be travel and girls/boys when in fact it's just a lot of sand in the crotch. (can you tell I've not surfed and should've picked another anaolgy?)
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merc,
Thanks for the quote, this painter (Philip Trusttum) says alot well,
http://www.trusttum.co.nz/comment/quotes.htm
I like this one,I couldn’t care a stuff about the world. Painting keeps me off the streets and I take my brain for a walk…If everybody did that, there wouldn’t be any wars.
Philip Trusttum, 1996
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merc,
Being a pro surfer means having to go, say and do what you're told, every day while you're under contract and competing in events every week round the globe, often in sloppy 2 foot mush, hotel rooms, jetlag, customs and did I say...
"Either you go out there and surf, or you go over there and fight, you're choice".
Col. Kilgore to sufer kid after napalming entire village. -
yeah sorry steven, my apologies. and for the record i would much prefer to see the $ going to squiggle-makers than corporate advertising platforms masquerading as national heroes.
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What i meant to say about the intrinsic/extrinsic reward topic is this:
I am all for decent financial support of artists and artisans - my comment wasn't meant to be an argument for suggesting 'if they really enjoy their work they shouldn't get paid, or shouldn't get paid well', nor 'the thanks and adoration of the community should be sufficient recompense'. I also heartily disagree with the romantic agrarian psuedo-socialist view of poverty as having some kind of aesthetic and moral purity that makes it neato, and makes earning a decent living bad.
In cases like RB's, where the lucky sod does something he loves and is good at, and gets paid for it too, well that's fantastic. But I think the ongoing pleasure derived has a lot to do with the autonomy i presume RB has managed to build into his professional life. If on the other hand you were required to sit in a room and churn out copy (even if it was stuff you were interested in and chose) every day 9-5 and failure to do so had dire economic consequences, then the fun would dry up pretty quick i expect. (There's another issue in that most good writers actually need to write for their sense of wellbeing, but let's leave that to the side for now.)
Similarly there are many pass times I have that I love, but wouldn't love if I did them because I had to, because I needed or wanted to do it for the cash. Gardening, drinking and bonking come to mind, i'm sure there are many others. I guess the real issue (as with the 'stress effects' literature), is the locus of control. Typically, as merc alluded to above, getting paid to do something means a diminuition of autonomy. If you can get paid and maintain autonomy then that's likely a different matter again.
There is also a ton of research on the effects of extrinsic motivation on behaviour, particulalry in the pediatric/education area, that show teachers and parents ought to be quite thoughtful about how they employ extrinsic reinforcement. See the following for example:
overview
definitions
meta-analysis
implications
commercial applications
lit reviewthat's what i meant to say.
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Yeah I agree. I've got a favourtie line I like to use: "work isn't fun, work is work, if it wasn't they'd call it play"
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In cases like RB's, where the lucky sod does something he loves and is good at, and gets paid for it too, well that's fantastic. But I think the ongoing pleasure derived has a lot to do with the autonomy i presume RB has managed to build into his professional life.
Good point. Even in my last real job, which lasted five years, I went home for the power crisis, forgot to come back and spent the last two and half years working from home.
I do work pretty hard, but a really core appeal of this gig is being able to write what I want, how I want. That, and being able to go and buy fish when I need to.
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being at liberty to purchase fish is probably the most important, and often unsung factor in all this.
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fresh fish is priceless my precious
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merc,
How did the surrealist change the light bulb?
A fish. -
One Surrealist to Rule Them!
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Steven. A point I think you have missed:
Artistic innovation.
Now, art can be unusual in the sense – it’s not like a car paint job or, well – pretty much any other commercial product - in that sometimes the work that has the most utility is not immediately apparent.
That is to say, that sometimes the great work an artist does may not be immediately understood or acknowledged. It may take everyone a few years to catch up. Now obviously, that is not always the case: just because an artist’s work is not understood at the time, it may not necessarily be any good, nor because an work is praised at the time, does it necessarily mean it’s simply in fashion. But it is the case that, particularly in case of the visual arts, that many of the great innovators have not been acknowledged at the time they sold their work.
Frankly, I feel it would be nice if we had a system which acknowledged the possibility of long term value, and rewarded artistic innovation, and the pushing of boundaries. And I don’t just mean this in terms of aesthetics, but also themes and message.
It would be nice to get out of a system, where artists no longer face the reality that investing in something that people may not catch up on for another five to ten years won’t equate to being destitute. They can actually make some money from their forward thinking, as well as the art investors, and the inevitable rip-offs that will spring up when it becomes the fashion.
I think this is particularly important in NZ where, at the risk of seeming unpatriotic, historically, some of the reactions of our mass media to artistic innovation make us look like a fucking backwater. Witness the total farce of the newspaper coverage over the Et.Al. Venice work.
That was just fucking embarrassing. Frontseat didn’t help much either, I might add.
But anyway, point made before I drift off onto another subject…
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good point Peter
the reactions of our mass media to artistic innovation make us look like a fucking backwater...Witness the total farce of the newspaper coverage over the Et.Al. Venice work.
from recollection the charge towards this embarrassment was lead by Paul 'I don't know art but i know what i like' Holmes. such a paragon of taste.
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Good point Peter.
Just picking up on an earlier part of the thread, another way in which the market has found possible solutions to valuing future performance and allowing investment (for sport read art) the Freakonomics blog has a good link:
http://biz.yahoo.com/weekend/jockexchange_1.html
Imagine artists being able to sell 20 percent of all future earnings to a trust, which would, in turn, sell securities to the public investment market (probably no good for those artists who are way ahead of their time).
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from recollection the charge towards this embarrassment was lead by Paul 'I don't know art but i know what i like' Holmes. such a paragon of taste.
You might be right. The most irritating thing about the whole situation were the outright lies being told about the cost of the exhibition, where the money was coming from, and what was even in it. Of course, all they really wanted to do was stir up a bit of controversy and take on the 'common man' role, sticking it to the so-called elitists. What heroes.
And then surprisingly, the reports of the exhibitions final success were somewhat more muted...
Unfortunately, now we miss out on the sense of pride we ought to have about doing so well over there. Oh well.
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yep, any price to embarrass the government.
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