Hard News: About Arie
646 Responses
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Che Tibby, in reply to
the threat of violence etc appears to be frightening to people who are unlikely to commit crimes
i think you mean unlikely to violent crimes. other crimes are still committed, because the punishment for them tends to be in soft prisons or home detention.
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BenWilson, in reply to
i think you mean unlikely to violent crimes. other crimes are still committed, because the punishment for them tends to be in soft prisons or home detention.
Yes, I don't think the fear of violence is meant to be built into our way of dealing with extremely minor robbery.
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Russell:
Ghod, how appalling! Has anyone complained to Radio Live or the Broadcasting Standards Authority about the sad old ex-mayor's latest diatribe? And incidentally, aren't assaults on someone with Aspergers classified as hate crimes, given that the Sentencing and Parole Reform Act 2001 clauses in question cover disability in that context?Craig Y
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Sacha, in reply to
aren't assaults on someone with Aspergers classified as hate crimes
The assault would have to be motivated by knowing that about the victim - unlikely to apply here.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
their intention looks to have been to discourage more looters by making an example
Yup and they fucked up. It is the wrong thing to do. Even if they believe the man to be guilty, he is innocent until he goes to court. There is no excuse for that public parading of an innocent.
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giovanni tiso, in reply to
I never said that without the threat of prison violence people would run riot(or some such nonsense) nor did I suggest it is an explicit part of the sentencing process. I am saying that you can't have police, courts, and prisons without the violence that necessarily goes along with that. It's meant to be frightening.
You're confusing the violence inherent in the system with police brutality or prisoner rape. They are two different things. Police, courts and prisons are the violence. You probably should have stayed till the end of that anarchist meeting, eh?
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
it would be because none of the officers present were willing to identify them
Maybe. Or it was a solo officer with no others around, so none of them could testify. There are scenarios where the only officer covering would be the one responsible for the assault, and they don't all require institutional arse-covering.
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
I expect the police to investigate this properly and identify those responsible.
And if the investigation legitimately cannot determine who is responsible to a level sufficient to support prosecution, you'll scream bloody murder, cover-up, corruption, and everything else that comes to mind. We know.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
'I can begin to look forward to the day that police don't call my eyes "evasive", my body language "guilty", my weird mumblings "lies", my self defence "assault", my late night wanderings "suspicious", my helpfulnesses "crimes", my quiet demeanour "uncooperative", my hesitations "proof". '
To cut a long story short, 'Ownlife'.
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
There is no excuse for that public parading of an innocent.
Quite. Parade the guilty ones before the assembled media by all means, but let a court deliver a verdict first. The sentence handed down is far more of a deterrent than the threat of being placed before a crowd of cameras.
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if it wasn't for the threat of police beating and cellmate rapings i'd be out plundering and murdering my way thru downtown wellington as we speak
Yes indeed. Back in the good old days, when we could hang 'em, flog 'em, boil 'em, rack 'em, crush 'em and burn 'em, I am reliably informed that things like pirates and bandit gangs were in fact completely mythical. It is only in these sad days of wet liberal PC-gone-mad that these myths have, sadly, become a reality.
the fear of violence is meant to be built into our way of dealing with extremely minor robbery
Screaming pansy liberal Winston Churchill once noted that the civilisation of a society can be judged by the way it treats its prisoners.
The 'violent' sanction that society employs is the threat of loss of liberty and rights that go along with that. Although a certain amount of force is required in order to carry out that sanction, it is a 'passive' sanction, as opposed to the 'active' infliction of physical harm on the citizenry.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
I want prosecutions. Anything less is the police covering for their own – again.
I am as uncomfortable with baying for the blood of the police as I am with police parading an innocent for public humiliation.
It's possible that Aire was beaten by a disgusting thug wearing a police uniform who should never have passed the psych exam...
But it's also possible that the officer in question is a good decent person who had just spent the last couple of days dealing with dead bodies, horrible injuries, panicked members of the public. Someone who had his/her house destroyed, had spent hours worrying about whether their partner and children were OK while dealing with the worst disaster scene imaginable. Had just had a few hours disrupted sleep after working ridiculously hard and then seen what looked like someone taking advantage of someone else's loss for their own benefit and reacted by striking out.
In short we don't know the circumstances that led up to Aire's injuries. Yes we require our police to behave better than we expect ourselves to cope. But until we know what happened I'm not going to bay for blood.
Even with the most charitable circumstances, if Aire was beaten by an officer that is the end of that officer's career. And I can imagine circumstances where that might be unjust as well.
But we must we find out exactly what happened , it must be investigated independently and thoroughly.
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Idiot Savant, in reply to
But it's also possible that the officer in question is a good decent person who had just spent the last couple of days dealing with dead bodies, horrible injuries, panicked members of the public. Someone who had his/her house destroyed, had spent hours worrying about whether their partner and children were OK while dealing with the worst disaster scene imaginable. Had just had a few hours disrupted sleep after working ridiculously hard and then seen what looked like someone taking advantage of someone else's loss for their own benefit and reacted by striking out.
That's not acceptable out of uniform, and its even less acceptable in uniform. I expect police officers, of all people, to be able to control themselves. If they can't, they have no business in law enforcement.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
Are you certain you could control yourself in that circumstance?
I'm not. And I haven't tried to strike another human since I was 15 and I really don't know that I could perform to that standard under that stress.
Empathy is critical here. Empathy for Aire first and foremost but also empathy for the police.
As I said we demand our police perform in a way most of us can't. And yes no matter what the circumstance if an officer caused those injuries that will be the end of their career.
It may be fun to bay for blood but it isn't helpful.
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Andre Alessi, in reply to
You’re confusing the violence inherent in the system with police brutality or prisoner rape. They are two different things. Police, courts and prisons are the violence. You probably should have stayed till the end of that anarchist meeting, eh?
Oh snap.
Foucault would be unimpressed also, too.
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Plice have reviewed the case and.....
Out on bail at thr Rangiora Court
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Plice have reviewed the case and…..
Out on bail at thr Rangiora Court
Good.
It appears that, still, no one has had the nerve to ask who beat him.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
The ‘violent’ sanction that society employs is the threat of loss of liberty and rights that go along with that.
And also the idea that, for most of us, a criminal conviction carries a social stigma and practical consequences -- for example, a lengthy prison sentence for P dealing will definitely be injurious to your future career options and ability to travel to parts of the world that don't give visas to convicted drug dealers. But that's only "violence" if you're at some poli sci tutorial discussing anarchist/libertarian theory or a meeting of the Robert A Heinelin Fan Club.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
If they can’t, they have no business in law enforcement.
Or teaching or nursing or any job involving heavy machinery or sharp blades. Jus' saying.
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Even with the most charitable circumstances, if Aire was beaten by an officer that is the end of that officer's career. And I can imagine circumstances where that might be unjust as well.
There are no circumstance where, if Arie was beaten by a police officer and that act means the end of that officer's career, that such a loss of job would be unjust. Police officers are not allowed to beat up suspects. Period. Full stop. It's never excusable. If it has happened (and, as Russell has argued, it's a likely inference to make), then it should be investigated. That's not baying for blood; that's requiring that the police live up to the standards we expect of them, standards that every officer knows are expected of them.
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Che Tibby, in reply to
It appears that, still, no one has had the nerve to ask who beat him.
please god, let it be Collins herself.
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DCBCauchi, in reply to
You’re confusing the violence inherent in the system with police brutality or prisoner rape. They are two different things. Police, courts and prisons are the violence. You probably should have stayed till the end of that anarchist meeting, eh?
No, I don't think I am. I am making a separate claim than the one that the institutions are inherently violent.
But you're right, I never did stay to the end of those anarchist meetings. Fuck that.
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
then it should be investigated. That’s not baying for blood; that’s requiring that the police live up to the standards we expect of them, standards that every officer knows are expected of them.
Expecting and demanding that it be investigated is one thing, and I will be very disappointed if there's no IPCA investigation.
Demanding prosecutions is prejudging the outcome of the investigation as determining who committed the assault with sufficient certainty to support such a prosecution. Which is a dangerous leap to make, since it leads one to conclude that the only possible explanation for there being no forthcoming prosecution is the Police covering for their own. -
David Farrar's finely nuanced take on this here
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/02/a_quick_photoshop.html#comment-803583
[DPF: The Police have obviously been reprimanded for their oversight. TV3 tonight showed another looter in court, and he looked like he had fallen down at least four sets of steps]
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This message has gone out from Simon Buckingham, who I presume is representing Arie:
Dear fellow ASD friends and all wellwishers
It has been initially established that there may well have been an assault on Arie by police. However, it also appears that these were NOT NZ police officers.
Foreign police officers have left their families to volunteer to come to Christchurch to support. You have to be here to witness the devastation, and as an Aspie, I am close to meltdown myself having had little sleep from the aftershocks. As such, whilst there may be a couple of bad apples, it is important that this issue is dealt with in a sensitive and respectful manner.
Please therefore could you not simply attack the police, but recognise that it is in the best interests of Arie and his family to resolve this matter fairly and with minimum fuss? He is so grateful to all those who have supported him, and mortified at what is happening. Therefore, before attacking, please can we allow due process to take it’s course?
Thanks so much, and kia kaha.
Simon
But I can still be angry at Michael Laws, right?
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