Cracker: Mr Transparent
41 Responses
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Well, by definition even under MMP the electorate votes of a hell of a lot of people "count for squat" -- because they're either invalid, or cast for unsuccessful candidates. In my own electorate of North Shore - one of the safer National-held seats - 14,453 (or 38.72%) of the electorate vote was 'wasted'. In Otaki, the "wasted" vote was 21,055 - or 54.53%.
Yes but luckily there's this whole other vote, of which 90%-ish all count. Which would be about twice any FPP campaign.
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I'd suggest one improvement to MMP would be abolish dual voting, so one's party vote went to the party of the chosen electorate candidate. With maybe a reverse threshold as well (so an electorate candidate would have to get 5% of the national vote as well as a majority in the seat to be elected).
Or, more radically, have only list MPs.
Or, to get complex, a system of regional lists with the number of elected MPs being corrected to achieve proportionality.
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I'd suggest one improvement to MMP would be abolish dual voting, so one's party vote went to the party of the chosen electorate candidate.
No, no and again, no. It would for one thing kill the independent candidate stone dead for all time. All the minor parties would also disappear overnight. It would effectively disenfranchise a lot of people. Under MMP if you think the candidate for your chosen party is a dickhead you can vote for someone else yet still support 'your' party and vice versa.
Here in Scotland, despite vowing never to vote Labour again (Iraq), I gave a personal vote to a Labour chappie in our Scottish Parliament electorate because of his principled stand against and voted for another party in the party vote. Your system removes that flexibility entirely and would in effect turn electorate candidates into list members.
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If voters vote National without paying attention to policy, simply because they want change, then they'll get a democracy they deserve, much like U.S. voters.
That would be fine, but I'm concerned I'll get the government they deserve, too.
t people occasionally got to vote in a government they wanted. Wasn't that what we did in '84?
Oh, right. People voted for Roger Douglas in '84, did they? Really? Sure about that?
And they never actually voted for Muldoon, although they ended up with nine years of the bastard. Those of us stuck with the under-35 tax have a few choice words for that idea, I suspect.
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I'd suggest one improvement to MMP would be abolish dual voting, so one's party vote went to the party of the chosen electorate candidate.
Terrible idea. Harry Duynhoven routinely got in with a huge wodge of National voters who vote for him because they think he's a great MP, but want to vote for a National government in the party vote.
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MMP has real problems - but so do all systems. I think MMP has at least made both major parties more centrist. As right-leaning centrist myself, I think that's a pretty good thing.
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I'd hate to lose MMP go, with the ability to vote party and candidate, having now lived in the UK for a bit. The idea that governments can rise or fall based on a few dozen electorates and that the rest can go to hang seems a silly basis for electoral selection. However I guess with the current polls and Glasgow East / Crewe several hundred electorates may be at risk that usually wouldn't be.
But the very idea that because my seat is a rather safe Tory seat (and the local rep seems well enough) that I effectively sit this one out is a little repugnant after voting in NZ. I might well want the Tories in power, or the Lib Dems to gain a couple more seats, or the UKIP to bring us out of Europe (lol) but if I vote for anyone but the former my vote is going to be just a symbol and nothing more.
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I'd suggest one improvement to MMP would be abolish dual voting, so one's party vote went to the party of the chosen electorate candidate.
Hell NO! I'll be voting for my National electorate puppet (I think it's Richard Worthless again) this year, because I live in Epsom and it's either swallow that fish or waste my vote, and contribute to Rodders (and by extension Act) possibly getting into Parliament.
However, I have no desire to see National in power. Keeping Act out is one way of trying to ensure that, but it doesn't mean I want them to get my party vote too. Under your plan, I'd lose the ability to try and keep both National and Act out because voting one way on one vote would automatically cast my other vote the same way. -
Rodgerd, selectively editing my words to make them look like I didn't say what you did is dishonest in the extreme.
Besides you completely missed the point, while it is true that under FPP you could get into power on 35% ish of the vote, the 35% who did vote for the govt got the govt they voted for. Whereas under MMP you vote for a party and they may be in govt but constrained/pushed by coalition partners you didn't vote for. I'm sure Labour voters didn't vote in favour of Winston Peters as Minister for External Affairs.
Have you got it yet or are you going to just rant some more?
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So, are you saying it's preferable to be governed by a single party that 65% didnt vote for than a coalition that 48% didnt vote for?
35% of the people might like that, but that seems less like democracy to me? Also, the 48% might be more comfortable that the main party they didnt vote for IS constrained at least a little....
If the coalition was so fractious and unstable that nothing got done, like in some parts of the world, I can see why that would be bad... but so far, we havent had that experience in NZ.
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Hell NO! I'll be voting for my National electorate puppet (I think it's Richard Worthless again) this year
While I completely understand why you'd do that Matthew, isn't it sad that we have to think like that, rather than actually voting for the candidate we'd like to see win, no matter what their chances?
Anyway, if I lived there I'd probably vote for Rodney simply because of the colour he contributes to the political landscape. As compared to say, Richard Worth (who tried to be my friend on Facebook the other day...ew). But of course that's just my opinion, and I can see many many reasons why you'd vote the way you do.
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I'd suggest one improvement to MMP would be abolish dual voting, so one's party vote went to the party of the chosen electorate candidate.
Ugh... think Peter Dunne & United Future.
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So, are you saying it's preferable to be governed by a single party that 65% didnt vote for than a coalition that 48% didnt vote for?
Well, Fletch, we don't vote for coalitions either - no matter how hard the punditocracy try to game 'em before hand.
If the coalition was so fractious and unstable that nothing got done, like in some parts of the world, I can see why that would be bad... but so far, we havent had that experience in NZ.
From a certain POV, the government that governs least, governs best. :)
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Damien Christie wrote :
While I completely understand why you'd do that Matthew, isn't it sad that we have to think like that, rather than actually voting for the candidate we'd like to see win, no matter what their chances?
That's what STV would do for us ...
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Well, Fletch, we don't vote for coalitions either - no matter how hard the punditocracy try to game 'em before hand.
You're right, we dont vote for coalitions.... but the smaller the portion of voters who feel disenfranchised by the result, the better in my mind....
48% thinking "i didnt vote for these idiots" is (usually) better than 65% thinking the same....
I'm not saying it's perfect..... but I do think it's better than FPP.
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Well, Fletch, we don't vote for coalitions either - no matter how hard the punditocracy try to game 'em before hand.
Well in some elections you do to an extent, if the parties have declared them beforehand - '99 Labour and Greens for example.
But under FPP you don't vote for parties either, you vote for a candidate and just know that they're a member of a party. So technically, in the one FPP post election that I voted for, the country got at most about 0.5% or so of what anyone voted for.
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