Posts by Simon Grigg
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Damian, I know all sorts of dark secrets about you...remember that.....and this is Graham's thread, bro....you stick to yours, this is about slapping down the music industry, you're on a comedy roll now.
oh ok...it was a cheapshot but the point is, and Finn and I are all ok about it now....
Is that still that huge cat you had years ago in Ponsonby. That was only just a cat.
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How many records has Kenny G sold? Chris Botti? A considerable amount more than Nathan Haines, I'll wager. Should I go put some posters on my wall?
You miss the point Finn. With both those two you are confusing musicianship with ideas again. I don't like Kenny G at all but I'm happy to admit he can probably play..I don't know, I've not paid enough attention to him. I know Chris Botti can, but I don't think he's inspired.
I'm not going into the ups and downs of Nathan...he can be difficult at times, but as a musician and a composer he is inspired, can be inspirational, and is driven by his muse.
I don't think calling bullshit on a post stating everything sucks is snide, especially when it seems you now agree with me that you overstated. And clearly my point about being unhelpful was aimed at the way you made that statement rather than than any wider statement you now wish to make (and are doing so). I would suggest that it is you that is taking things out of context. It was you that made what was a wide provocative swing at musicians and engineers in New Zealand...I simply responded. You set the level of discourse with that statement.
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Suffice to say that I have very, very little time for Nathan Haines
Uhhh, ok....and you have sold exactly how many records?
Here is Nathan's list (there are many more still to be added or uncredited too). As his publisher for some years I'm privy to communications between him and a legion of musicians and producers around the world, all of whom I imagine would disagree with you as I do.This is not about getting nasty, I just think you are wrong. Coming into a forum and making blanket statements like "Musicianship here sucks. Sound engineers suck. Etc." do neither the industry, nor yourself any favours.
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My favourite recordings would probably be sneered at by some as being unworthy, but who cares. God Bless DYI and low-fi
Produced and Mastered by B. Udget
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And I think it is on the movie The Kids Are All Right where Townshend claims that the Who were shit musicians,
They got there though...and somebody was smart enough to stick them in the studio with Shel Tamy at the beginning.
Most of the early punk records were well produced, despite the lack of musicianship...The Ramones first album, all three chords of it, is stunningly produced..but Finn is right when he says that the standard of production on show on released records in NZ is shocking. It's an issue.
On the other hand, the joy of so many of those early DIY singles, like Suicide 2, was their raw, straight to tapeness..they were ideas and fuck you performances, and little else. Rough passion.
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Finn,
Feel free to argue with me on the "musicianship" level...it's all subjective anyway, I find many virtuoso professional musicians dull, unimaginative and plodding, and that applies as much to my experience in the UK as it does New Zealand. But they have their uses. Give me inspiration over perceived musicianship anyday.
When I first saw New Order they were shocking musicians...but then they changed the pop world (with a little help from Arthur Baker & John Robie).But when you combine inspiration with the skills of the likes of the Haines Brothers (are those two of the guys you dispute....they are contemporary too) or Mark de Clive Lowe...well.
Musicianship is not a problem in New Zealand, and is not the point....I'm sorry you are having trouble getting paid but lets just say we profoundly disagree on this...however the things that Graham pointed out are...letting badly produced, badly mastered, badly written...editing....the Annie Crummer / Hollie Smith school of not letting your overwraught songs breath...out into the marketplace, or even on to the next Kiwi Hit Disc are. As much as anything it's an A&R hole....nobody calls the shots. As shitty as the Sex Pistols were musically, albeit with great ideas, somebody was smart enough to put them in the studio with Chris Thomas. And importing, as is the fashion, some no-name producer who may have worked on some band's album as an engineer, from abroad as is the fashion, or flying offshore to work with the same is no answer either.
I've been working with a guy called Mannasseh, who's the beat maker, composer, programmer..whatever you want to call it...with a band variously called The Others / Otros / Others Requiem and the guy, with limited musician skills, is absolutely inspired. The sound-beds he creates are astounding not only me but a bunch of other longtime cynics who are hearing them. To me the future lies with people like him, inspired driven people, as it always has. We put him with Alan Jansson because Alan has the production skills to take his creativity to the next level...and bring in the odd seasoned musician when required. And to say no when required.
Damn, another long post....
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albums now mid price so wouldn't qualify for the album chart
The irony being that half the albums in the chart are sold for about mid-price rates but qualify because they are not listed as such in catalogues
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Ditto. You know, it was a real revelation to me the first time I went to Sydney, that the 'fierce trans-Tasman rivalry' was disappointingly - pathetically - just us.
You can throw Wellie's thing about Ak and Melbourne's thing about Sydney into that statement too
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And I agree that....I should've previewed...
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It's one of the general NZ problems - the infrastructure of a music industry on the actual production side doesn't really exist to an acceptable standard. Musicianship here sucks. Sound engineers suck. Etc.
Finn since no-body else here has done so, I'm calling bullshit on this. New Zealand has produced a string of musicians who, having honed their craft in NZ have gone on to become in demand session musicians around the world. Several are my friends..some having returned to NZ for lifestyle, or family commitments and are working, some still working abroad. You want musicianship..track down some footage of the great Maori showbands of the sixties and seventies, or Billy Tk or hundreds of other working musicians who actually do make a living. Watch Stuart Pierce or Max Stowers, or Nathan Haines or Mark de Clive Lowe or Hammond Gamble or Joel Haines or George Chisholm or Tony Hopkins.. I could go on. NIgel Kennedy used to spend nights at Cause Celebre, a club I used to own,jamming with, and in awe of some of these people...I know because he insisted to telling us over and over again, every year.
A trained New Zealand producer owns EastWest one of the biggest sample CD providers worldwide and he has recently bought one of LAs most famous studios. He honed his art in Auckland recording local acts. Sound Engineers...Greg Carroll was U2s...I used to tour around NZ with him...Oceania Audio in Kingsland has produced a stream of sound engineers poached by touring acts visiting. Rick Huntington is continually in demand to master, out of Uptown, a studio that has featured on the cover of several studio magazines, as has it's owner, Alan Jansson, who has turned down at least half a dozen approaches from European and US studios in the past decade to re-locate.
That's off the top of my head....
I'm absolutely in agreement that much of what finds its way to release doesn't stand up to scrutiny, failing on several levels, but that's a failure that needs to be addressed in other ways than slighting en mass NZ's producers, engineers and musicians.
And I agree that