Posts by Ross Mason
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Ro David and karren
Russell: "But is this a "we don't really understand what causes the symptoms so the condition therefore can't exist" discussion? Like OOS?"
I read in the Anton article that it has been a "condition" since 1872 so according to him there is probably little dispute that it is one. Again according to this article what causes it has not been determined but it alludes to being connected to a previous injury, diabetes, autoimmune system, something called sympathetic reflex dystrophy, thyroid dieseases.......and nasties apparently do grow in and around the joints. Ouch!
And here is one of those "nearest and dearest" episodes: My wifey had OOS, RSI, Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (pick one) and ended up having had surgery to relieve it (ACC BTW). She still cranks thousands of words out on the keyboard. There is no denying that a (very long) late night session years ago on a computer in a very uncomfortable position sent it over the top. There was no denying she had "a condition", but what "causes" it??? Yes, oversuse or repetiviely straining a part of the body may be said to "cause it" but what is the thing that drives it to happen inside the body???
So if you are saying that ACC (who DO have a penchant for defining cinditions) might regard frozen shoulder in the same light as they did for OOS ...sorry...RSI...and not accept it as a legitamate condition or consequence of an "accident" then who knows.
My view is that just because a cause has not been found, that should not automatically invoke a need to find an "alternative approach". It is extreeeemmmmeeely unlikely that the alternative approach knows the cause and if there is any honesty they would say so - given what we have found out so far from our meagre investigation.
What David and Karren may be looking for is some alleviation of the pain and suffering and that is a different issue altogether. It is hard to take a partner in pain, I too know.
So maybe the doctors, specialists etc are taking the correct approach of first doing no harm?? (And yes, I will concede that too many painkillers may end up doing harm anyway). Rocks and hard places come to mind.
Useful advice? I don't know....I'm not a doctor and not qualified to offer any!! Second (third?)opinions are always accessible I would posit.
.....Time..... Patience. ....TLC in spades.....Flowers even, they do have a profound effect on the female psych....doG knows why...
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In a VERY quiet voice......
This link is from the UKPubMed that links to a Canadian article.
http://ukpmc.ac.uk/picrender.cgi?artid=1522754&blobtype=pdf
BSD rating? I would give it 7/10. Seems to be a "regarded collection of the conventional medical fraternity" and a good list of apparent (needs checking though) references
Whereas this a wiki article here (whcih has a link to Russells reference BTW:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frozen_shoulder
gives a more positive prognosis...until one reads the discussion and notes the use of TENS - a controversial pain management system. Also in the discussion that the article has " very few references of no relevance whatsoever and totally ignoring national health associations guidelines."
BSD rating: I would reluctantly give 1/10.
Both articles do say that in most cases "time heals". An important piece of information IMHO.
And that concludes my first steps in discovering new facts about "frozen shoulder".
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Russell,
I apologise for being rude and patronising. Please be assured it was never the intention at all.I did not comment on your research. I thought there may not be enough space for the replies to my comments as I suspect I might get blitzed. I have looked at the links and also at the osteopath wiki link (as opposed to "osteopathy in ameirca") as well. I do note from the discussions on the pages that the americans seem to 'absorb' some osteopathy within the conventional medical system but the comments suggest that as they become more trained in conventional medicine the use of osteopathy becomes a sideline rather than mainstream. I suspect that is the reason there is angst and obviously a split between the two(?) philosophies. I note also that there are a number of surveys in progress that are out to test the efficacy of osteopathy methods in reply to the request of the conventional medical fraternity to "supply the numbers". I await the results with interest and they may offer some reasons to change my mind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Osteopathy
Was it Michael Shermer? What say you to his change of mind?
And regarding ACC and magnetic underlays. I make no apologies for ensuring my taxes are not used for sham treatments.Finally, I was the shooting coach for the NZ Paralympic Shooting team in Athens. Amongst the athletes shooting I came across a Canadian - an ex lumberjack but someone who now has difficulty in even wiping his own arse- who is now in a wheelchair after a chiropractor snapped his neck 'cos he was suffering some neck pain and was looking to get it fixed. (And yes, I now expect some comment that conventional medicine has produced as good a result as that. Plenty of them.)
But maybe I have an idea why I remain skeptical.
That is my experience. It is obvious you and others have yours. And there is nothing, nothing on this planet that cannot convince you something works than having a nearest and dearest healed by some process that appears to have no logical reason at all. It is a very powerful (and innate?) force. Keep the defences up and be aware of it.
Question, investigate, use the facts that you know, hypothesise, test and reject or test and accept. If something still does not match the facts (or new facts) then more knowledge is required. I find it difficult to accept that when a reason appears to be unknowable there is an apparent need to invoke what are usually spurious reasons to placate the mind.
I leave you with this:
"The combination of phenomena is beyond the grasp of the human intellect. But the impulse to seek causes is innate in the soul of man. And the human intellect, with no inkling of the immense variety and complexity of circumstances conditioning a phenomenon, any one of which may be separately conceived of as the cause of it, snatches at the first and most easily understood approximation, and says here is the cause."
Count Leo Tolstoy, “War and Peace”
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Thanks Stephen, As far as I can see from the original post, Russell had been in pain since "late summer". At some "previous visit" Russell mentioned "urinary frequency, back pain and gouty symptoms" and I read that as Russell telling the Doc this but he/she not picking up on it. It appears that he then visited the osteopath on more than one occasion after the initial Doc visit. (The osteopath telling him that he was treating him too often - which we assume was for the same continuing symptoms??). He then visited the Doc again and we gather that Russell reemphasised the symptoms. Thus bringing on the belated correct diagnosis.
I may have got some of the timing wrong but I don't think I was far off the track.
Russell's returning to the osteopath after the first doc visit is the interesting bit.
Me? I would have gone back to the Doc if it continued and asked a few more questions.
As far as name calling goes, I am pretty sure I was referring to the other party(s) and not Russell Brown Esq. Obviously, depending on which camp you are in depends whether "quack" or "good Doc" is appropriate nomenclature....or not.
But what about TroyHoward!!!!!!
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Geez, I'm impressed that this has hit such a nerve amongst folk. All I did was ask a couple of questions.....and relativley politely I thought. And why only me? TroyHoward pointed the bone as well you know!
Sorry Russell, I don't think I ever called anyone, most of all you, a dullard. The comment re "Late News" referred to the latest MOE fight with the school principals on school national standards. I admit it was a dig to suggest instilling some bullshit detecting skills into our children. I think it may prepare our kids for "The Demon Haunted World" we unleash them into.
Am I correct in assuming you are talking about Michael Schumer? If so then check this out:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-flipping-point
Is your comment out of date?
Finally,
Russell: "He also skipped gaily past the part about how ACC and health insurance companies fund it ..."The ACC bit may be next on my list. A story for you. A couple of years ago I heard that ACC were actually paying for magnetic underlays for their "clients". I wrote and asked the Minister for ACC (at the time Annette King) if she could confirm that this was in fact the case and could she supply some form of evidence of efficacy. The reply duly arrived and informed me that as of this date, ACC would no longer be paying for the supply of magnetic underlays. Why were they doing this? According to the letter, some "contractors" (unidentified) to ACC had decided that this item could be used in "clients" rehabilitation. They had been told to cease this immediatley. BTW, no evidence of efficacy was included.
Which reminds me, I have been thinking about asking again to see if the directive was still in place with the new minister.
Maybe I need to ask a few more questions about other ACC services.
Now for the grovel. I DO enjoy you columns !!!!!! Keep it up!!!!!!
I just wish Southerly would write more!!!! :-)
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B. Jones : "Hell, an imagined benefit is better than no benefit. The placebo effect is a real phenomenon. If standard medical care can't find the source of chronic pain or treat it effectively, then it's legitimate to depart from double-blind randomised trial territory and find out what works for you. "
Russell said: "It is quite widely accepted: ACC, private insurers etc -- and four universities in Australia offer clinical courses."
And London(?) University has a degree in Astrology. NZ Universities sell MBAs. Hmmmm.
Posted last night on Arts and Letters Daily
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-05-20#feature
And sucked form the document is this list:
"We not only know placebos “work,” we know there is a hierarchy of effectiveness:
Placebo surgery works better than placebo injections
Placebo injections work better than placebo pills
Sham acupuncture treatment works better than a placebo pill
Capsules work better than tablets
Big pills work better than small
The more doses a day, the better
The more expensive, the better
The color of the pill makes a difference
Telling the patient, “This will relieve your pain” works better than saying “This might help.”As someone else said. "It's your dime."
Psst: I do good deals in Magnetic Blankets too! The shysters who peddle those should be shot.
Late News: Lets put "Rational Thought" into the primary school curriculum. Make it compulsory, test it and don't let anyone continue their education until they achieve a pass.
I'm all for Carl Sagan's Bullshit Detector to be turned on in as many people as possible.
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I'm with TroyHoward on this one Russell. For a free thinker like you I am rather surprised.
What staggers me is how lightly your correspondents have tiptoed over the fact that you were seeing a quack. I think a good Doc would have found it before the quack realised his "treatment" wasn't working too well. Late summer seems a long time ago.
I too have suffered kidney stones as yes, it was pukingly painful! It took 5 minutes at the GP and I was straight down to A&E.
The pain akin I am assured, from someone who has experienced childbirth and a stone, as being pretty bloody equivalent. The morphine worked a treat.
Geez, what did it cost you for all those "My osteopath, Roydon, told me he shouldn't be treating me so often" visits?
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Why "deface" the paper?
I say do it because it sends a message that it IS a ridiculous question AND it has the added advatage that it gets counted.
I always thought it would be great to form the "Informal Party". No entry fee and you get a total at the end of the night.
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Must efit page before pisting.....Must edit psge befire posting.....
Must edit page before posting....
"I'm not worthy! I am Worthy" -
What is it with guys called "Dick"?
"I'm not worthy. I'm am Worthy!"