Posts by dyan campbell
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the only times I've had stuff stolen at an airport was in Canada (twice)
*the only time my mother was ever sworn at in a public bar, ditto
*the only time I've been publically abused to my face in a racist mannerCanada is indeed a very racist country, but in most cases a racist remark (or a sexist remark for that matter) is met with considerably more (social) disapproval than here. But as my cousin observed, that's just so much window-dressing.
Having said that, the racism is never far below the surface. My Mum was chased and spat on by her neighbours (in 1945) who mistook her for a Japanese war bride, though she was actually a French-Metis RCAF war veteran .
I would post a photo here, of her in uniform, but I don't know how.
These days the usual target is are First Nations people - like this:
And yes, I heartily agree, Canada's image internationally is not the same as Canada's reality, but the cultural norms are quite different than here, in many ways.
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When I lived in Canada it used to be a standard joke that an anarchist in Canada was someone who refused to use the postal code.
I know this is how it looks on the surface, but the peaceable appearance of any society is much more fragile and easily disrupted than you might think.
This is Steven Pinker, talking about his teenaged belief in Canada's peaceable nature and the events that ensued:
As a young teenager in proudly peaceable Canada during the romantic 1960s, I was a true believer in Bakunin's anarchism. I laughed off my parents' argument that if the government ever laid down its arms all hell would break loose. Our competing predictions were put to the test at 8:00 A.M. on October 17, 1969, when the Montreal police went on strike. By 11:20 A.M. the first bank was robbed. By noon most downtown stores had closed because of looting. Within a few more hours, taxi drivers burned down the garage of a limousine service that competed with them for airport customers, a rooftop sniper killed a provincial police officer, rioters broke into several hotels and restaurants, and a doctor slew a burglar in his suburban home. By the end of the day, six banks had been robbed, a hundred shops had been looted, twelve fires had been set, forty carloads of storefront glass had been broken, and three million dollars in property damage had been inflicted, before city authorities had to call in the army and, of course, the Mounties to restore order.
And less than a year later Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau invoked the War Measures Act and declared Martial Law in response to the actions of the terrorist group the FLQ - here he is hinting at his next move when challenged by reporters:
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Go back to your fancy talking-not-in-circles about things-that-aren't-ever-so-slightly-ludicrous then. See if I care.
Yes, Russell seems to miss the small pleasures and minutiae of these discussions, doesn't he?
Where were we... sixteen angels on the head of a pin... not EIGHTEEN as I'm sure you're ready to concede.
I heartily agree Canada is very racist if you look in the right places - hockey forums, olympic committee boardrooms, small town bars, police holding cells - and there have been many, many instances of the most incredible, violent racism.
The the apparent docility and mildness of the Canadian individual is a pose adopted to conform to a cultural and social expectation. Anarchy (literally) is just below the surface of any society, and Canada is no exception. But if you're at a party in Canada and a group of people say nasty things to make another guest cry , you're probably attending a party where the guest are younger than 8 to 10 years old.
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You also oddly left out the part where a Canadian player nearly murders an opponent and is met by the huge opprobrium of being selected for the Olympic team. I remain somewhat baffled by the selective approach, and saying that sports is a business therefore doesn't count makes no sense.
It's relevant as a counter to a different point than mine, maybe... but my point was that people in Canada behave in a way that is moderated by the opposite sex's approval, and that this moderation may not even be genuine - people will go to much greater lengths to mask bitchy behaviour and couch it in more subtle things than the scene I described.
My point was similar to an observation my cousin made about the differences between NZ and Canada in terms of racisim... she said Canada was a very racist country under the surface, but in NZ it was kosher to be racist and out. In both cases the point was that Canadian's behaviour is moderated by the opinion of the person observing them, and they are much, much more circumspect in their outward behaviour - whatever their inward feelings - than cultures where a kind of brutality is encouraged.
So there's clearly a bit bubbling under the surface, as well.
JackElder's whole post, and especially this quote absolutely nails both mine and my cousin's points.
So while you guys (Gio and Kyle) think you're countering a point I've made, you're actually just chasing your own tails.
I would totally have yelled at that guy, and in my currently rather brief time as a parent I've also noticed that mothers and fathers pretty much *always* make eye contact (or more) with each other in stressful situations for their children.
Yeah, as a woman who is not a parent, who nearly got punched in a service station for deigning to tell a woman it might not be appropriate to talk to a child like that,
Danielle, Megan, aroha nui to you both for this. I think it's the right thing to do as well. I wish you guys had been there the time I was assaulted in practically the same spot in the park while running.
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Charlie Sheen
Kyle, Charlie Sheen is an American actor. Gio, Patrick Kane is an American athlete.
Both of you are off on a tangent about men who work in lucrative businesses.
I remarked that in Canada the reaction to that by other guests to a loud bully would be shock, disapproval and distancing, rather than giggles, amped up volume of name-calling and herd-agreement.
The sporting examples you give are unrelated to any of this, but I look them up and,the reaction to the spiteful outburst by a Canadian player is was huge public opprobrium for his remarks in Canada, and a milder disapproval in the US.
The first is the remarkable gap in moral outrage between American and Canadian media and fans.
Like in the Toronto media chattering class, which treated Avery's "sloppy seconds" quip with near-total indignationBut this was not about sports - which are a business. I was talking about a social setting where a tight coterie of middle aged women were evidently delighted with their success at making another middle aged, acne scarred woman cry at a party.
In Canada the other women would have expressed disapproval and distanced themselves from her outburst. Not necessarily motivated by kindness, but by vanity - they would be loathe to have any men be witnesses that facet of their personality. A Canadian man would find a woman who behaved that way less attractive. Ugly even.
There was a tv character example of my point about how men in this culture can admire a bully. In a scene on the tv show Go Girls, a character grabbed the wrist of a 9 year old girl and threatened her. A man - the child's teacher - witnesses this and instantly falls in love with the child-intimidator. The wrist grabber would not be lovely or lovable in my culture. No matter what the 9 year old had done, the man would only see a nut who threatened a little kid.
Just as my outburst against the driver who ran a little boy off the road elicited glares of disapproval at me - there are different perceptions of what is and isn't okay or acceptable in society. In NZ society, to behave in a manner was considered appropriate, I would have pretended not to see the driver or notice he had nearly hit the kid when he swerved towards him, and I would have not made eye contact with the distraught Mum - just like everyone else in the park that day.
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So a guest from Germany - who barely knew any of them - marched over to him and demanded "ARE YOU THE ASSHOLE WHO LEFT HIS WIFE WHEN SHE WAS PREGNANT??" there was an awkward pause, but he admitted he was. "WELL I THINK YOU'RE A PIECE OF SHIT!" she said, and sat back down to calmly eat her sausages. The asshole guy looked uncomfortable for about a minute and then just left.
I can think of several people I wish this had happened to.
Yes, it was satisfying to witness, and it made the pregnant, deserted wife (who'd been close to tears since the asshole's arrival at the barbeque) much more comfortable.
What I found interesting was the reactions of the other guests - it was pretty much a 50:50 split between those who thought the German guest had spoken completely out of turn, and those who thought she had done a good thing. It was not divided down male:female lines either - but there was a real black/white take on the event - no one was undecided about it.
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Are you sure she was Canadian? I cannot believe the entire nation of Canada is that judgeypants. She wouldn't survive 5 minutes where I work. There are ways and ways of doing things, and that ain't one of the most effective.
Yeah, Tracey is very Canadian - but I totally agree, not an effective approach at all and a likely one to get us beaten up and make things worse for the kid.
But that's very Canadian behaviour - we are a deeply censorious people. I once confronted a woman (a Canadian woman, back in Canada) who had smacked her toddler and was dragging her along in a particularly painful way - I caught up with her and said "whatever it is she's done, she doesn't deserve that treatment" and the woman gave me a cold look and said "Oh?" turned and gave her kid an almighty whack in the face and said "that one's from you".
I became a little more careful and diplomatic when interfering, usually leading with something like "I think you've been incredibly patient... I would have snapped a long time ago... " which, hopefully is a bit more effective at interrupting a beating. I also approach people and their dogs (we live by Cornwall Park) and if the dog is suffering from terrible thirst, eyes glazed and swollen tongue lolling, I try to phrase it in a way that implies that the owner must already know this and simply doesn't know where to find water. But yes, I judge and yes I interfere, hopefully mildly and politely enough to be effective and not just piss the person off.
But censorious and eager to jump in yes, that is part of the national make up... there was a bright-red lobster coloured baby, roasting for hours in the full sun at Piha - and much to Paul's horror I suggested to the parents that perhaps their child might be more comfortable in some shade? And just a couple weeks ago in Cornwall Park, a man who sped up his car and revved his engine, narrowly missing a toddler on a bike with training wheels crossing the road. He was swearing and screaming abuse at the kid who was not moving fast enough for him - so I chased after his car and yelling "Are you crazy?? How dare you run a kid off the road?!? ASSHOLE!" much to the astonishment and disapproval of the other people walking in the park. The Mum, who also had a baby in a stroller and her hands very full did thank me effusively though, she was quite shaken and in tears, as was the toddler.
As far as the poor nutrition scenario - Tracey would not see the man had any rights in that instance, any more than if he had been giving the kid a bottle of scotch, a syringe full of heroin and a pack of cigarettes. Her take on it would have been that man is violating that boy's right to be strong and healthy with sound teeth and she was pretty indignant with me when I dragged her away.
But the chances of someone coming up and expressing an opinion on something they think is wrong - whether it's littering, beating your kid, smoking where you shouldn't, locking your dog in a car - a Canadian feels quite justified and positively duty bound to march right up and express a sharp and critical comment. A Canadian is the most likely nationality to march over and express loud disapproval.
Well maybe second most likely. I just remembered witnessing a tense scene at a barbeque (here) where one of the couples had acrimoniously split, a few months after the husband had talked his young wife (who had supported them both during many years of his university) into quitting her job and having a 2nd child (1st one was still under 2). He left her for someone else when she was 3 months pregnant. Then he turned up uninvited to a barbeque.
So a guest from Germany - who barely knew any of them - marched over to him and demanded "ARE YOU THE ASSHOLE WHO LEFT HIS WIFE WHEN SHE WAS PREGNANT??" there was an awkward pause, but he admitted he was. "WELL I THINK YOU'RE A PIECE OF SHIT!" she said, and sat back down to calmly eat her sausages. The asshole guy looked uncomfortable for about a minute and then just left.
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I found this though!
Team Canada Rap Disses Patrick Kane and Team USA
"Can't believe you think you got a chance against the best/when your roster looks weaker than Patrick Kane's chest."
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Hey, Gio and Kyle, I was looking for articles that talked about the public reaction to these players' respective disgraces
So what have we learned from the NHL's actions on this, and by the hockey world's reactions?
Two things we've learned from this mess.
The first is the remarkable gap in moral outrage between American and Canadian media and fans.
Like in the Toronto media chattering class, which treated Avery's "sloppy seconds" quip with near-total indignation; like he had wheeled a flat screen in front of Dion Phaneuf's locker and played a sex tape of himself and Elisha Cuthbert set to Green Day's "Good Riddance (Time of Your Life)." Even the humorous boys at the Kurtenblog couldn't find the mirth in Avery's taunting.
Compare that to this report from Puck Daddy reader Felix, originally from Montreal but now in Dallas, on the local fan reaction to Avery:
On talk radios here in Dallas, people were laughing it off, saying they had no idea why he was even suspended . No one here (at least around the office and on sports talk radio) thought it was a big deal at all, but apparently Stars management did not take it well.
Did anyone else sense a cultural, geographic divide on this issue?As for the other guy....
indeed was Patrick Kane last year, after assaulting and robbing a taxi driver who didn't have $1.20 change
As for this guy... Patrick Kane ... he's not Canadian.
Patrick Timothy Kane Jr. (born November 19, 1988) is an American professional ice hockey right winger currently playing for the Chicago Blackhawks
... which would be why I had trouble finding any news articles about reaction by Canadians...
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I took your general point to be that insofar as bullying existed at all in Canada, it was met with near-universal derision.
That wasn't my point... my point was that women in Canada are conscious of trying to appear sweet and will go to much greater lengths to mask their bitchy behaviour. A group of women would not nod approvingly and lend support to the comments I described, but would recoil in horror at the thought that they would be soiled with the reflected crap the insulting drunk speaker was spouting. For that matter, being that drunk in public would be regarded as shameful in Canada. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I am saying a woman would be careful how she chose her words and her delivery because she would be found less attractive, whereas here I have heard men express admiration for women who pride themselves on being spiteful or mean-mouthed.
Perhaps this just means that Canada is a more sexist country. Maybe it's better that NZ women show solidarity with their drunk, foul-mouthed friends? I didn't claim kindness, compassion or good-heartedness stopped women from acting like witches stirring a caldron at parties, I said it was the fear of appearing ugly especially in the eyes of the opposite sex, and that this sort of censure is less likely to be experienced by people who go to single sex schools.
Just as my description of my friend Tracey shouting abuse at a mongrel mob member would not be typical or common behaviour for NZ women. That shrill, proscriptive, bossy tone would have appalled a lot of NZers, especially as she'd launched into a top volume tirade on what a crap job he was doing of taking care of his kid. I am sure her behaviour would have shocked and appalled virtually all NZers, especially women, but it would have been considered quite normal and defensible and positively constructive to many Canadians.
My point was the cultures are very different. My point was that things I have seen and heard here would shock Canadian sensibilities. My Dad kept getting shock after shock from NZ tv ads, and conversations with people who would say things that just stuck him as... like something he would have heard in Canada back in the 1940s.
I am sure when NZers go to Canada they are frequently shocked and offended by facets of my culture that are completely different from their own.
I think it's not unreasonable to counter that claim by pointing to hockey culture - where machismo, sexism and racism are rife. I appreciate that you don't follow it, but you can't ignore it exists, surely. And it is about as small and insignificant an aspect of the national psyche as rugby is in New Zealand, by all accounts.
This might be shocking...
assaulting and robbing a taxi driver who didn't have $1.20 change for his fare)
...but this struck me as a completely different league of difficult for the public to fogive this ...
brutal killing of his five-month daughter Jeanette.