Posts by SteveH
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Southerly: Who was George Hildebrand…, in reply to Lynley Chapman,
Your work here looks convincing that we have Eliza Ann/e’s birth family.
I think it's always good to highlight the inconsistencies and present the evidence for and against a conclusion. When I'm dealing with people many generations back I'm always very aware that if there is just one incorrect link between generations it can mean dozens or hundreds of incorrect people in a family tree.
I forgot to mention one of the more compelling factors: "Malvina". Searching for "Mary Webb" in the 1861 census returns 2198 records. "Eliza Webb" gives 612. But there is only one "Malvina Webb" (though there are other potential matches such as "M Webb"). Genealogists love obscure names!
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Assisted emigration record for Thomas F Webb and wife Mary Ann.
("New Zealand, Archives New Zealand, Passenger Lists, 1839-1973," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11000-41209-96?cc=1609792 : accessed 31 May 2014), Canterbury > 1874 > Duke of Edinburgh > image 42 of 71; citing National Archives, Wellington.) -
Assisted emigration record for Susan Webb and family.
("New Zealand, Archives New Zealand, Passenger Lists, 1839-1973," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11774-137517-25?cc=1609792 : accessed 31 May 2014), Canterbury > 1878 > Waitangi > image 58 of 64; citing National Archives, Wellington.) -
Assisted emigration record for Malvina and Mary E Webb.
("New Zealand, Archives New Zealand, Passenger Lists, 1839-1973," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12063-102711-46?cc=1609792 : accessed 31 May 2014), Canterbury > 1877 > Waipa > image 21 of 54; citing National Archives, Wellington) -
The 1861 census record. Transcription:
Thomas Webb, head, 25, Sailor, born Gorran, Cornwall
Susan Webb, wife, 26, born St Austle, Cornwall
Malvina Webb, daughter, 5, born St Austle, Cornwall
John Henry Hosking Webb, son, 1, born St Austle, CornwallAlso I noticed that next door there is another Thomas Webb from Gorran, aged 58. Looking at earlier census data doesn't reveal a connection between these two but it's seem likely that there is one.
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Southerly: Who was George Hildebrand…, in reply to David Haywood,
Do you take it that Eliza Ann was ‘Annie’ and Melinda was ‘Minnie’? That would make sense (as these were names that both gave to their daughters) but the ages don’t appear to match.
Yes, that's how I interpreted the names. Lynley mentioned that Eliza used Ann or Anne on official documents.
The ages are slightly out but that's not uncommon. For Susan I believe the 1871 census age is incorrect (probably 36 was incorrectly transcribed as 30); the 1861 census has her age as 26 and her death record has it as 87 in 1921 so those two both match the shipping record pretty well. John's age matches, Susan's occupation matches, and the missing father matches. The other missing daughters are explained perfectly by the other shipping record. Also the ages for both Annie and Minnie are out be the same two year margin. Overall I'm pretty convinced it's the right family.
Here's the 1871 census record. The head of each household filled in a census schedule that was then transcribed into an enumeration book by a census official. This in an image from the enumeration book.
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I have found the shipping records for Eliza's family on familysearch.org. Her older sisters arrived first, followed by Susan with the other children. The father, Thomas, was not with them:
The "Waipa", arrived Lyttleton 24 Jan 1877:
Malvina Webb of Cornwall, 21, single, housemaid
Mary E Webb of Cornwall, 15, single, nursemaidThe "Waitangi", arrived Lyttleton 13 Oct 1878:
Susan Webb of Cornwall, 44, tailoress
John Webb of Cornwall, 17, cooper
Annie Webb of Cornwall, 15, nursemaid
Minnie Webb of Cornwall, 13The family appears in the 1871 Census of England, in St Austell, Cornwall:
Susan Webb, head, 30, dressmaker, born St Austell
Malvina Webb, daughter, 15, housekeeper, born St Austell
John Henry Webb, son, 11, scholar, born St Austell
Mary Eleen, daughter, 8, scholar, born St Austell
Eliza Ann, daughter, 6, scholar, born St Austell
Melinda, daughter, 4, scholar, born St Austell
Angelina Martin, neice, 23, servant, born St AustellThomas is again missing, however the 1861 shows him as a sailor which may be the reason for his later absence.
I also found shipping records for Thomas Frederick Webb:
The "Duke of Edinburgh", arrived Lyttleton 17 Jul 1874:
Thomas F Webb of Middlesex, 21, painter
Mary A Webb of Middlesex, 22I think this almost certainly rules out any close connection between Eliza and Thomas Frederick.
I have images for all the above records. Shall I post them here or upload them somewhere else?
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Southerly: Who was George Hildebrand…, in reply to David Haywood,
"August 31 [1887], Mary Ann, relict of the late Thomas Webb, and mother of Mr Thomas F, Webb, Caledonian read, St Albans, aged 67 years. Deeply regretted."
She’s the 67-year-old offspring of the late Thomas Webb and the mother of Mr Thomas F. Webb. I’m still thinking about that.
I think "relict" probably means she was the wife of the late Thomas Webb.
From the BDM indexes Thomas Frederick Webb had these children (with Mary Ann):
1875 Mary Ann Webb
1877 Thomas Frederick Webb
1881 John William Webb
1887 Leonard Arthur WebbThomas Frederick Webb the younger died in 1945 age 68
Thomas Frederick Webb the elder died in 1935 age 81So Thomas Frederick Webb born about 1854, died 1935. Mother was Mary Ann (born about 1820, died 1887), father was Thomas Webb. I'm not sure how Thomas Frederick could be related to Eliza. They're not siblings and both of their father's names are Thomas so they are very unlikely to be first cousins.
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Southerly: Who was George Hildebrand…, in reply to David Haywood,
The details-obsessed scientist in me would like to see every ‘fact’ (dates, etc.) on a given family tree hyperlinked back to the raw data (birth certificates, etc) – but as you all point out, in genealogy even the raw data may be unreliable.
That's pretty much what I do, as far as possible. I use mediawiki (the software that runs wikipedia) to store it all. A lot of other people (saner/more practical people?) use dedicated genealogy software for it.
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Southerly: Who was George Hildebrand…, in reply to David Haywood,
Is there a trail of ‘references’ which leads back to someone who has definitely sighted the actual certificates?
Ideally every “fact” a genealogist is presenting should be backed by references to where it came from.
The general wisdom is that the indexes are not reliable enough – you need to get hold of the DIA issued certificates/printouts. A certificate is the official document you normally get when you order a “birth certificate”. For genealogy it’s generally better to get a printout. This is usually a copy of an image from the actual register. Sometimes you get a transcribed printout. This can be because the original register was in such poor condition that it couldn’t be imaged or it can be because the data has officially been changed. That happens in case of adoptions – if you get a birth certificate for an adoptee it will have no indication that the person was adopted or have any information on the birth parents. I’m not sure how far back that practice goes though.
I’m now wondering if I should order the birth certificates for Eliza’s suspected children from BDM – could there be any possibility that they might contain new information that could attribute them to another mother? We also now have her signature from the divorce affidavit which may prove useful.
They certainly could provide new information. They should at least have the location. They usually have the age and birthplace of the parents, though birthplace is often vague for immigrants. The mother’s maiden name should also be there. The informants can be useful too, particularly if they turn out to be related.
