Up Front: It's Not Sex, and It's Not Education
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When I was on a school board. a few years ago, we had to do the required consultation with the school community (ie parents) about sex ed. I went to the meeting which was attended by a few parents, only one who had any real concerns (and I think she was from a religious family). But it was fascinating hearing how the teachers approached the whole subject and this was for Year 9s or 12-13 year olds. It was part of the health curriculum and came under the framework of keeping yourself safe, so included being assertive and being confident to speak up for yourself or others, identifying bullying behaviours and how to address them (including saying no to sex, alcohol etc), finding help (and having approachable school counsellors and a visiting nurse), and other generally healthy behaviour stuff. They did do the condom practice and the anatomical stuff too but as just another skill to learn. You could even get NCEA credits later on.
What the school was proud of at the time was that this a) wasn't particularly embarrassing or cringemaking b) Kids readily used the school counsellors and encouraged their friends to go c) teenage pregnancies there were very rare.
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rachelf, in reply to
BenWilson, in reply to Lucy Stewart, about 10 hours ago
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Well, I've had considerable trouble with them over hundreds of encounters.
Dude, if you haven't been able to master condom use after hundreds of attempts, perhaps condoms aren't the problem. Either you or your partner[s] need to get some practice - preferably before getting laid.
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Lucy Stewart, in reply to
You wouldn’t have to persuade me to change my mind – you’d have to persuade my penis to change its mind. I never refused to use one, that was a purely physical response, which vexed me greatly.
If it's a physical reaction, then that really sucks, and you have my sympathies. But it's still not a guide for general usage, and I think what you're missing is that the onus is on you, in the context of sex education and teaching young people about safe sex, to prove this is a general problem with condoms rather than a personal issue you have with them. (One where you exposed yourself to a certain amount of risk; this isn't about you being an evil STD-and-pregnancy-spreading person. You could have easily got an STD off someone you had unprotected sex with. Works both ways.)
It's not about a "narrative", it's about determining why people don't use condoms when they need to, and how that can be changed. Chlamydial infections are at something like 25% of young people in NZ. In that sort of disease environment condoms for penetrative sex need to be considered non-optional by everyone.
You're asserting that an issue with universal usage might be because condoms are physically difficult for a non-trivial proportion of men to use, but your evidence is that you have problems with them. It's not hugely convincing.
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BenWilson, in reply to
Guys like you are the reason I got an STI & have used the morning after pill 3 times.
Well, all except the business of having an STI, which I never have. Probably all that condom use saved me from that. That's something, I guess. But relying on them for birth control doesn't really seem safe to me even if you had perfectly compliant partners.
Either you or your partner[s] need to get some practice - preferably before getting laid.
I'd just as soon not, I think I've spent enough time at that coalface. I've had professional help, and they were baffled. They were also women though, so their input is about as much use to me as a swimming coach who has never been in the water. I'm happy to accept that promiscuous sex in the modern world is simply not for me. It was a slightly bitter pill to swallow when I was perfectly capable when there was no condom, the whole business was easy as pie. I've been married for a long time now so there's no need.
Yeah, it's a hard line, but I'm not sure Ben realised just how strong an influence it can be to have a guy insist that he can't wear a condom/doesn't want to when you're horny, eager to please & slightly self-conscious.
No, I'm perfectly aware. I think it's an important fact about condoms. Young people need to know it.
But it's still not a guide for general usage, and I think what you're missing is that the onus is on you, in the context of sex education and teaching young people about safe sex, to prove this is a general problem with condoms rather than a personal issue you have with them.
Yup, that's true. I'm not about to suggest people don't use them. But I did think it could be of use to people trying to understand the drivers of "high risk" behavior to hear my account. With the best intentions and help, condom use defied me to the point I will happily go to the grave never wearing another one, even if that were for some reason to mean that I must never have sex again. To me it's not worth it. Fortunately, that's not likely to happen.
You're asserting that an issue with universal usage might be because condoms are physically difficult for a non-trivial proportion of men to use
Considering that universal would have to include me, then yes, my failure is non-trivial. But I'm not making a science out of it. Even if I'm the only person in my situation on the planet, it's still my story. If, for some unexpected reason, I was looking for sexual partners again, I think it's frankly much more honest to just say straight up that it's just never going to involve a condom, so if they're not up for that risk, then don't apply. They're still pretty damned safe, every bit as safe as my wife is now, and millions if not billions of other people around the world are.
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
Guys like you are the reason I got an STI & have used the morning after pill 3 times.
Actually, I think it is a little unfair, does take two to tango.
I made some pretty crap decisions there, but why was I put in the position to be that gatekeeper in the first place?
You were put in that position because you were naive and chose to be there, making you responsible for yourself, in that position, hence the good reasoning around the need for sex ed. It is not the other persons fault if you choose to have sex. I thought we all wanted equality here? I just can't get behind blaming someone else for ones own ignorance.There are many protections that both sexes can use to have a healthy relationship, and that should be taught too. To have multiple partners or liasons is a personal choice so one needs personal responsibility for ones own actions.
Ben did say he was adding his experience to the bigger picture. I thought he expressed himself pretty honestly (and consistently), enough for me anyway to wonder if he was circumcised, or not, as that may have been his difficulty, or he may have been getting condoms a bit too small, stretchy as they may be. Maybe the reasons there is non use of condoms should actually be a study in itself, cos honesty is a good way to start to understand why. jmo though. -
B Jones, in reply to
I thought we all wanted equality here?
Yes, but there are elements of inequality that frequently come into play between men and women negotiating contraceptive use, men being bigger and stronger being an obvious one. The way slut stigma works is another. Pretending it's always 50/50 doesn't eliminate that.
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Lucy Stewart, in reply to
It is not the other persons fault if you choose to have sex.
So choosing to have sex now absolves the person you have sex with of the responsibility to not be a dick? Because that's what pressuring someone in that situation to have sex without a condom is. (Saying "I can't/won't, but I'll do (non-condom-requiring-activities), and I'm totally cool with that" isn't, to be clear. Saying "no sex unless we can have penetrative condom-free sex" is.)
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Okay, can I ask that we all just tread carefully here? This is a very personal area, and it would be nice if we could not over-politicise people's individual experiences - we do, after all, want them to keep sharing them.
Read kindly, people.
Responsibility for what happens in a consensual sexual encounter is always shared. Maybe not exactly evenly, but shared. There is only so much responsibility one person can (or I think should) take for another, and if someone agrees to something, if they say they're okay with it, the other person can't actually read their mind.
I mean, maybe it's the influence of BDSM, but I'm not "choosing to have sex", I'm choosing (and helping to produce) the exact scenario that's unfolding at the time. I guess I'm just seeing here a basic unconscious acceptance of the idea that the man gets to decide what happens, and the woman gets to decide whether she agrees to that or not, and even as a sub, that's SO not my experience.
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Lilith __, in reply to
I thought we all wanted equality here?
When contraception has been available, it's almost always women who've been expected to sort it out and put up with the inconvenience and side effects. I'd wager that amongst heterosexuals, it's also mostly women who get routine STI tests.
Is it so unfair to expect men to think about and deal with contraception/STI protection?
I know some men find condoms bothersome. And perhaps more research needs to be done into why some men find them difficult to use.
But taking responsibility for sex and keeping ourselves and our partners safe? That's something we should be sharing equally.
Even if they're happy to use them, how many men carry condoms with them? Many (heterosexual) men seem to expect that they can just be spontaneous and not have to think ahead.
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
But taking responsibility for sex and keeping ourselves and our partners safe? That’s something we should be sharing equally.
That was my point.Everyone could take responsibility and the kids I've helped raise all carry condoms on them, and for them it is a no brainer. So I think sex education is a good thing.
Anyway I am not wanting to argue. It was jmo. -
All we got back in the seventies was a single gender-seperated class of sex education dealing only with reproductive anatomy (Middleton Grange, the same school that spawned Graham Capill- his dad was one of my teachers). Didn't stop me from turning out gay at the end and Wreaking Horrible Vengeance for What They Put Me Through. Fortunately, this was shortly before the advent of HIV/AIDS.
I am so over Garf Georj! What a wonderful case for euthanasia that man is...
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Jackie Clark, in reply to
All I can remember of any sex ed at school- 1979, age 15, mind – was our biology teacher showing us how long an erect penis “normally” is , with the help of a ruler. And no, I don't recall the measurement.
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I can't recall much sex education at all at school. Mind you, I was at a convent school. From which I picked up a powerful load of Catholic guilt. Emma linked to a great piece by Clarisse Thorn, in which she says that she talks about some of the problems she has with the way she was taught about sexuality.
I wish that I hadn’t gotten this message: “Sex is easy, light-hearted — and if it’s not, you’re doing it wrong.”
Do I believe sex can be easy? Sure. Do I think it can be light-hearted? Absolutely! But do I think it’s always those things? No, and I don’t think it “ought to” be.
I wish that I had gotten exactly the opposite message i.e. that it was okay to have sex just for fun. It took me years to shake the negative conditioning off.
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I thought we all wanted equality here? I just can’t get behind blaming someone else for ones own ignorance.
We want equality. I always carry a condom.
Responsibility for what happens in a consensual sexual encounter is always shared.
Totally. Genderizing this issue isn't all that helpful. Tangentially, It’s never a bad idea to bring the topic of contraception up well before you reach the bedroom (or whatever locale of choice), seeing as it’s a key component in the assessment of compatibility for sexual adventure. This can also work as an OK chat up line if handled with a sensitive degree of linguistic thrift….
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Lilith __, in reply to
Genderizing this issue isn’t all that helpful.
Chris, I'm not sure what you mean by this. Surely discussing gendered roles and expectations and culture is never more relevant than when we talk about sexuality? And since we have physiological differences, surely we need to compare notes about how stuff feels or works for us?
If you mean, lets not be making sweeping generalizations about people based on their gender, I'm with you on that. But I don't think that means we can't talk in general terms about our own experiences.
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Contraception *is* gendered. We aren't making it so by discussing it.
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Nobody seems to be doing any educating about disability and sex.
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Emma Hart, in reply to
Nobody seems to be doing any educating about disability and sex.
Not enough, no. Filament magazine is.
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Hilary Stace, in reply to
That's the sort of information that should be in school sex ed.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Ben did say he was adding his experience to the bigger picture. I thought he expressed himself pretty honestly (and consistently), enough for me anyway to wonder if he was circumcised, or not, as that may have been his difficulty, or he may have been getting condoms a bit too small, stretchy as they may be. Maybe the reasons there is non use of condoms should actually be a study in itself, cos honesty is a good way to start to understand why. jmo though.
Quite.
Yep, all men are supposed to be able to use condoms happily and easily and effectively, just like all women are supposed to be able to reach orgasm, menstruate and breastfeed without complaint.
These are areas where no one needs to be made to feel guilty for not attaining the mean.
I suspect condom fit is a bigger issue than is generally acknowledged. The social baggage around bigger or smaller fits of that particular product makes the retail interface awkward – and you will not find obviously-marked bigger or smaller condoms in a supermarket.
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If you mean, lets not be making sweeping generalizations about people based on their gender, I’m with you on that.But I don’t think that means we can’t talk in general terms about our own experiences.
We're on the same page Lilith__, It was mainly a response to Alice's "guys like you", but I'll admit this caught my attention:
Is it so unfair to expect men to think about and deal with contraception/STI protection?
Perhaps I missed the post that it was in response to, or merely misconstrued. I've never found it unfair, it's basic safety. I think more than we'd like to admit, our attitudes are driven by our experiences and most crucially our choice of sexual partners. I've encountered arguments from partners that condoms don't feel good and that's been a deal breaker on more than one occasion, I'm just not interested in taking that kind of risk. I contracted chlamydia when I was seventeen from someone I'd just met who persuaded me there was nothing to worry about, and I perfunctorily chose to take that as gospel. That was a mistake. Less a result of poor sex education as poor toxicological education.
Given I'm not the most manly of men, and please forgive my objection to your comment above which is founded specifically on my own personal attitude to contraception, solely on the basis of my own, probably misguided ideology - true gender equality in some instances can best be achieved by way of transcendence beyond traditionally accepted gender expectations and rhetoric. But there's a ways to go there, So I should have just let it slide.
Whether it's men or Ts or bears or Catholics who are categorized as statistically the most irresponsible, demographic systematization can only carry us so far along the path to protecting our own hormonal genetic vulnerabilities. As you said:
But taking responsibility for sex and keeping ourselves and our partners safe? That’s something we should be sharing equally.
In a nut shell.
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I suspect condom fit is a bigger issue than is generally acknowledged. The social baggage around bigger or smaller fits of that particular product makes the retail interface awkward – and you will not find obviously-marked bigger or smaller condoms in a supermarket.
Yeah, hence my linking to that column of Dorothy's, but I was probably a bit coy about it. Condoms for the Larger Gentleman.
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Lilith __, in reply to
Chris – what I meant was just that, ideally, all this responsibility is shared, but most of the time, it’s seen as up to women to sort out and take care of. This doesn’t mean that any particular man is irresponsible or shirking, but more that there’s a common social expectation.
And without trying to diminish the troubles some men have with condoms, women have for so many years organised and put up with all manner of problematic contraceptive mechanisms: pills, IUDs, diaphragms, etc.
Talking about this sort of stuff goes into some very personal and emotionally-fraught territory, but I think we have to go there if we’re going to understand and communicate better about sex, contraception and STI prevention. And honestly, I haven’t known very many men who are proactive about these things.
I’m not trying to be divisive; I think we agree on fundamentals. But our experiences of sex and related issues are gendered, and I don’t think we can sidestep that.
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chris, in reply to
Thanks for clarifying that Lilth__. Very much appreciated, I get it now. Growing up I can't recall a time when mum's pills weren't a fixture in the folk's bedside cabinet, it wasn't until I was much older that I became aware of the physical and mental stress this treatment puts on females and wondered how much dad and his generation simply took it for granted.
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Thanks for sharing your experiences Chris. It's interesting to hear that female partners have pressured you not to use condoms.
FWIW I think diaphragm insertion should be an Olympic sport. Take a largish circular object, cover one side with a slippery jelly, squeeze the edges of the object together tightly between thumb and fingers, working against the powerful spring which is trying to regain its circularity, then insert this deep into your vagina while still keeping a firm grip of it and making sure you don't spill the jelly and it doesn't flip over and/or hit either you or your partner in the eye. Do this in a hurry in the dark in a variety of locales. Anyone who can do this should have a medal. :-)
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