Up Front: Choice, Bro
179 Responses
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Hebe, in reply to
I also can't criticise Finlayson for his vote
I don't think voting against the marriage bill makes an MP a homophobe. (I support it. Totally.) There are so many shades of grey in these sorts of debates (bugger that book because I don't mean THAT).
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BenWilson, in reply to
I don't think voting against the marriage bill makes an MP a homophobe.
The contrapositive holds, too. Voting for it doesn't stop you being a homophobe.
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Hebe, in reply to
I hadn't thought of that -- you are right! I have a hunch that some MPs will change their voting for the next readings.
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Emma Hart, in reply to
I have a hunch that some MPs will change their voting for the next readings.
Which is why I think it's really important now to write to those MPs whom you suspect are really opposed, or luke-warm, and thank them for voting in favour. Just to be nice, of course. Yeah.
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Tim Michie, in reply to
I agree. Which although less than wholehearted support at least means there is some faith in the process. NZ First's proposed referendum might be added at the Select Committee, no thanks to them and now out of the headlines their vote against shows the strength of their belief in the democratic process.
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The two Chch MPs against were NZ First, I think.
Winston's stance on this is super scummy.
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Hebe, in reply to
The two Chch MPs against were NZ First, I think.
Winston's stance on this is super scummy.They are. I would call Win First's stance "weaselly" rather than scummy.
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Heh. So. Look what came out of the ballot today.
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It would be interesting to see where in statute same sex marriage is specifically prohibited.
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Chris Waugh, in reply to
It would be interesting to see where in statute same sex marriage is specifically prohibited.
I thought the problem was that it isn't specifically prohibited, but that licences were only ever issued to straight couples on the assumption that the law was written under the assumption that a marriage is one man and one woman, with the high court agreeing that that's what parliament intended when the law was written.
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DexterX, in reply to
Yes - I looked at what was prohibited under the Marriage Act and couldn't find anything - I would be interested to know the specific nature of same sex marriage being prohibited.
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Paul Williams, in reply to
I also can't criticise Finlayson for his vote. He believes God made him gay, but that homosexual sex is a sin, so he's celibate. That seems sufficient pain in his life.
I didn't know this about Finlayson. I can't quite get my head around that but, as you've said, it's his burden and he's voted according to his conscience (not wanting to get into the whole 'how can my human rights be determined by your vote' thing).
And thanks to inthehouse.co.nz, I can watch what I missed.
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Incidentally, what did others make of Suo William Sio's contribution?
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
Suo William Sio’s contribution?
I thought he genuinely felt between a rock and a hard place. He was heavily lobbied by his electorate, and he will be voted out if he went against them . I think he wanted to work for his electorate. He put them first ,himself second and Louisa third. I think that is why he felt compelled to speak. I am sure there were more like him too.
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Gareth Ward, in reply to
Yes - I looked at what was prohibited under the Marriage Act and couldn't find anything - I would be interested to know the specific nature of same sex marriage being prohibited.
Asked this question previously - it was tested through the courts, and they ruled the intent of Parliament in the Marriage Act was for it to be man/woman only. Hence this amendment is just explicitly stating Parliament's intent as to who it applies to. Forget the name of the case sorry...
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Emma Hart, in reply to
Incidentally, what did others make of Suo William Sio's contribution?
He stood up, and a friend and I simultaneously tweeted, "Uh-oh."
I found most of it weak. I found his framing himself and his community as victims who might get "called names"... ironic? Mildly offensive? I think he could have made his position clear without that.
As far as rhetorical content went, I was most impressed with Nikki Kaye's speech. She quite deliberately invoked her party's history, its activists, even Ronald Reagan, to show that being pro-marriage equality was a sensible, traditional right-wing position. It was a hugely clever speech.
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Gareth Ward, in reply to
Forget the name of the case sorry...
Wait found it, c/o Kyle Matthews: "The case is Quilter v Attorney-General (Court of Appeal in 1997, reported in 1998 I think)"
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Emma Hart, in reply to
and he will be voted out if he went against them
Sofie, if Labour didn't de-select him and he stood again in Mangere, you think that electorate would vote against Labour, on this single issue? Here are the results from last time so you can calculate the swing.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
It was a hugely clever speech.
I was a fine speech. And not just for its intelligent framing of marriage equality in conservative terms (I was thinking of Craig for most of it). At one point she gulped with emotion. She meant it and it showed.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Winston’s stance on this is super scummy.
What a jerk. Easily the low point of the debate.
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DexterX, in reply to
The case is Quilter v Attorney-General
Here is the NZ Law Report summary - which is a part of why we find oursleves where we are today:
http://www.equalrightstrust.org/ertdocumentbank/Quilter%20v.pdf.
It is "peculiar" that in the operation of law that for same gender couples to exercise the benefit of the rights guranteed to all people under the Human Rights Act and Bill of Rights Act - in realtion to a Marriage act that did not exclude them or define marraige - there needs to be further legislation.
The legislation, will further define what consists a marriage, and should pass.
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
Well maybe not but the church from his area went straight onto tv to say he is warned. Maybe he got a fright. In my short time on this planet I have discovered that many people I come across are pretty conservative. I don't understand why but that's just me, lots of people sit on the fence. some leap over it and others hide in its shadow. I doubt our politicians are any different.
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Getting down to nuts and bolts the Draft Bill is here:
and the Marraige Act is here:
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1955/0092/latest/whole.html
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Emma Hart, in reply to
Well maybe not but the church from his area went straight onto tv to say he is warned.
I don't doubt it. Nor that their opposition, and his, is perfectly genuine. What I'm not buying is the idea that this will cost Labour Mangere, or indeed "seats".
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To be honest Sio could be discovered to actually be a goat and would still win Mangere. Hell he could be a goat, die the week before polling, and provided everybody knew he was the Labour dead goat he'd win Mangere.
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