Speaker: John Roughan is Scared
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I love driving in Auckland, it's so fast and easy. But Aucklanders tend to get really pissed off when I tell them that.
I still enjoy driving in London. The traffic is far denser but as everybody is driving defensively you can nip in and out of traffic with ease, people just share that space so effectively. In Auckland people tend to drive as if their "right of way" is all that matters, the sound of a car horn is taken as a threat or insult and the use of brakes for anything other than stopping at your destination is regarded as "some c%*t pulling out in front of me so I must kill him/her"
We need good public transport in Auckland just to keep these morons off the road.Wouldn't a 1400m gap between stations imply a 700m radius
No, 700 meters would just be the halfway point, you could catch a train rather than walk between stations. ;-)
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Angus, noone is saying the rail network here is good and just needs a CBD loop to put the icing on the cake. At the same time, there is quite a lot of capacity in the existing system, with Britomart providing a bottleneck. (Note that Manukau and Waitakere are relatively well-served by rail and would probably appreciate the extra services that a CBD loop could accomodate). Yes, maybe some people want to go from Papakura to Henderson, but not that many. The CBD still provides the greatest concentration of jobs in the region and could be intensified further with better transport options. This isn't being taken as a first step in improving PT, there is loads of work going on in the region -- busways, bus lanes, improving existing rail lines, improved ticketing etc. The uptake in rail use has been fast and it shows a lot of potential, not least because it offers a system independent of the stressed road network. Because of the increased use, Britomart is reaching capacity and the rail tunnel could alleviate this as well as provding faster and easier access to the CBD for all those on the network. What makes you so convinced that it would be a failure? Or that other PT projects would come out so much better in a cost-benefit analysis? If there is a better idea out there, I'd love to hear it.
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the sound of a car horn is taken as a threat or insult and the use of brakes for anything other than stopping at your destination is regarded as "some c%*t pulling out in front of me so I must kill him/her"
There is that: road rage seems to be a very Western thing. I've almost never encountered it in Asia, although the woman in her car at the markets yesterday honking her horn, angrily demanding that the sushi she wanted be bought to her car, came close, talking of which.:
To be fair at times I do actually enjoy it, the abundance of Sushi Tei outlets is a big plus.
Completely off topic, but try these guys next time. Incredible Japanese - the Setiabudi location is in a mall that consists of pretty much only Japanese restaurants.
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3410,
In Auckland people tend to drive as if their "right of way" is all that matters
I don't know; after spending time driving on the Shore, I find City drivers relaxed, pleasant and courteous.
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I still enjoy driving in London. The traffic is far denser but as everybody is driving defensively you can nip in and out of traffic with ease, people just share that space so effectively.
I really noticed that during my last trip to London in 2001. We were being let through (not even anything as assertive as waved through) for turns we'd never have made in Auckland.
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Superb post Patrick, puts together every reason why Roughan's article was completely silly.
The CBD tunnel is needed for many many reasons, perhaps the biggest being that unless we build it we can't ever expand the rail sytem beyond its current extent.
Angus raises some interesting points, though I think generally I would disagree that Mt Eden or Grafton can be adequate CBD replacements. The last thing you would want is people getting off the train there and then bussing to their destination. The CBD is already clogged with buses at peak times, imagine what it would be like with twice the number. It simply wouldn't work.
I will post a full discussion/response later this evening.
Thanks for all the kind words in the comments everyone.
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Ben,
You're talking about a whole new train line, going from South to West? Is there a proven demand for this?
I mean like people would go to a stop at Mt Eden/Grafton and then link bus into the city and yes I do think there might be some demand for commuting to the city. (Plus if I've got this right a tunnel would require an extended station at Mt Eden/Grafton anyways.)
It comes from me looking at the existing rail network and back of the envelope seeing what could be utilised for cheap additional capacity? If you can see another way of obtaining more capacity the existing rail network better then I'd go with that instead.
Andrea,What makes you so convinced that it would be a failure?
A supercity is a big diverse electorate, most of whom cannot access the rail network and will be asked to pay for this anyways. That isn't going to go over well with them. So this needs to be either rammed through over their objections or they need to be involved into rail with a network they can access.
Got to go play sport now, it has been a good informed debate and I do now think a tunnel would be a good feature of an extended Auckland rail network. You've convinced me of that much, but still think it is a chancey step to take right now. -
It's good to have someone like Angus challenge the need for a CBD tunnel. A chance for us to hone our arguments.
Let's say the CBD tunnel allows eight-car trains going at 2 minute frequencies each way. That's 60 trains per hour that could access say Midtown station. I'm not sure of the capacity of each train but let's say 500 per train. That's 30,000 per hour. I hate to think how many buses it would take to shift that many people between Mt Eden or Grafton and Midtown.
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Last time I was in Wellington in June I took a bus, and the mix of travellers seemed to be the same as it was 11 years ago - students to people with plenty of $.
Back then you'd see High Court Judges - not sure if his honour David Baragwanath still takes the bus every day now he's on the Court of Appeal (I think they get a driver as of right)
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A supercity is a big diverse electorate, most of whom cannot access the rail network and will be asked to pay for this anyways.
Sure, the politics aren't easy in such a road and car based culture, but a good political leader should be able to steer this through ok. That's the point of politics, right?
I still think you underestimate the wider effects of something like this -- as the original post says, for every person that takes the train rather than drives, the traffic reduction benefit is calculated to be $17.
But a lot of this benefit may be invisible to road users until something goes wrong because of increased demand. Imagine the trains stopping and all the people who use them flooding the roads with cars. It would become pretty clear then that this alternative system is removing a huge load from the road network.
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Generally trips that are suitable for rail, long distance trips to/from the CBD at peak times - are the very same trips that are least suitable for the road system to handle.
I think around 3000 people a day board a train at Papakura station. Let's say those people drive instead, and a decent chunk of them drive all the way into the CBD - quite a few at peak times. That's well over a lane's worth of traffic per hour (2000 vehicles) that would be added to the Southern Motorway - clogging the road for everyone else between Papakura and the CBD.
The same process works in vice-versa, take those people off the road and you create a huge benefit.
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Sure, the politics aren't easy in such a road and car based culture, but a good political leader should be able to steer this through ok.
Instead we have the incumbent chimp calling the (for once united) supercity candidates loony for supporting rail over his beloved asphalt truck-heaven holiday highways.
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Instead we have the incumbent chimp calling the (for once united) supercity candidates loony for supporting rail over his beloved asphalt truck-heaven holiday highways.
Big Trucking should be careful what it wishes for. It might actually get it.
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Putting a line from Britomart to the Shore would increase the number of tracks leading out of Britomart by 100% (doubling its capacity).
Uh, no. Unless the Shore line was tunnelled out through the far end of Britomart, it would have to use the same two tracks for entry/exit as all the existing lines. It would have to be landed somewhere east of Britomart, maybe in through Hobson Bay, and then switch through the shunting yards to come along the same route as the Eastern Line. Which means that if it runs the same service frequency as the other lines it'll take a full third (Eastern, Western, Southern, add Northern) of the existing capacity. And even tunnelling solely to get to the Shore simply means that it doesn't take that third, but it also doesn't add to the existing lines.
There's no provision to expand Britomart's ingress/egress corridor without enormous disruption to existing services. Boring a new tunnel, laying track that switches back into the existing tracks, all very expensive and very disruptive. It was an absolutely bone-headed design decision to have two tracks leading to a five-platform terminus, but also one consistent with public transport "planning" in Auckland. That Britomart was designed to be bored out through the far end is absolutely incredible when one considers what has ordinarily passed for forethought in city planning in Auckland in the past.
So, if we're going to have to tunnel out of Britomart in order to get a line across to the Shore why not tunnel under the CBD, add a couple of stations, link it back into the Western Line at Mt Eden, and actually double (or more) the capacity of Britomart by allowing trains to go right through it rather than being constrained to in-forwards-out-backwards operation.
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FWIW, my wife used the Western line to Britomart. It was perfectly good for getting home, but not sufficient for getting to work - it was too unreliable, and you can't tolerate that when you have to get to work.
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it was too unreliable, and you can't tolerate that when you have to get to work.
Man, are you guys so not Italian :-)
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FWIW, my wife used the Western line to Britomart. It was perfectly good for getting home, but not sufficient for getting to work - it was too unreliable
How long ago? All the lines have improved dramatically, and from memory in July about 86% of all services were within five minutes of scheduled time.
It's unfortunate that the network got into such a parlous state that bringing it up to modern standards has been so disruptive. But look at Wellington, where their standard for quality is > 90% of services within three minutes of scheduled and now they've had many days of cancellations and delays due to network upgrades. -
And on the topic of Britomart being nearly at capacity, Josh Arbury has written this post which confirms just how close we are to being unable to add any more services into the CBD.
[edit] It also shows how much more capacity the CBD tunnel would allow.
Angus, another hitch to just delivering people to Mt Eden from Southern Line services is that in order to make the service viable you need a full six-car set for peak hour. If most people are then getting off the train at Mt Eden for the CBD, you're left with running a mostly-empty train the rest of the way out to New Lynn before turning around and taking the same mostly-empty train back again. Not exactly a good use of resources.
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it was too unreliable, and you can't tolerate that when you have to get to work.
Man, are you guys so not Italian :-)Or unaware of many of the best traditions of the working peoples
And if an Italian is late for work it ain't the fault of their trains which, like most in Europe, are fabulous.
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And when I were a lad, people had to go all the way to London to have the experience of being off their 'eads on the Tube.
Tim: Where are you?
Mike: Err, Sheffield.
Tim: What are you doing in Sheffield?
Mike: Fell asleep on the tube.
Tim: The tube doesn't go to Sheffield, Mike.
Mike: Yeah, I know. I must have changed at King's Cross.
-Spaced - audio-out-of-synch version at youtube here -
Does anyone else keep reading the title of this post wondering why John Roughan is sacred?
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Ever since Steven Joyce came into view I have wondered about his Truck fetish. On the one hand he may just be very fond of trucks, maybe he had Tonka toys as a kid and never grew up but I doubt that is the real reason. There can't be many votes in trucking but I suppose there is money and if National plays their game no doubt Big Trucking will line the coffers of the "I'm all right Jack, fuck you" Party.
But what about the real numbers? If the new limits on truck size are taken into account then the largest trucks will be able to carry around 20% more than the biggest trucks do now. However, that will only be a small percentage of all trucks on the road so it will come nowhere near the 75% increase in freight over the next 25 years, alluded to by Joyce himself. That extra bulk capacity is much better served by Rail over the long haul and delivered locally by smaller trucks.
So, who is to benefit by Mr Joyce's mega trucks, it certainly will not be the majority of the population, so who is it?. -
How long ago? All the lines have improved dramatically, and from memory in July about 86% of all services were within five minutes of scheduled time.
It's been 18 months since she stopped working, but I don't think she had even tried catching one in to work for several months before that.
I'm willing to believe that the service has improved - I only put in my 2c to show what it was that stopped her from using it. It wasn't the destination, which was perfect - Britomart was about 200m from her work, and the Avondale station is only 2km down the road, she could either walk (never happened), or park near the station, or could get me to drop her off there (which was what was actually done the 20-odd times we tried it).
It was the reliability. Even if we were Italian, her workplace was not. She has it even harder, having German ancestry, so being late caused her real stress. The bus, despite taking 15-30 minutes longer, was her preferred option.
Since then, West has been double tracked so I can bet a lot of the improved reliability stems from that.
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Steve, I don't think you need to find conspiracies to understand the Right's love of trucks. It's more to do with ideology. Trucks don't require centralized coordinated planning (although of course they're much more efficient when they are coordinated properly), which seems to shit off the think tanks. Furthermore train drivers can easily unionize, whereas truckies are mostly contractors from dozens of different sources - it's impossible to block scab working. That's part of the reason they can be cheaper - the labour is exploited more easily.
Also trucks are massive symbols of raw power and energy - I wouldn't underrate the sexual psychology of it. A fetish, as you say.
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So, who is to benefit by Mr Joyce's mega trucks, it certainly will not be the majority of the population, so who is it?
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there is money and if National plays their game no doubt Big Trucking will line the coffers of the "I'm all right Jack, fuck you" Party
You answer your own question. Joyce hasn't been nicknamed the Minister for the RCF for nothing. He's so transparently in the pocket of the trucking industry that it really isn't funny. RCF have been supporters of National for a while, as witnessed by National, usually a bastion of user-pays ideology, objecting to RUC being increased to try and capture more of the costs of repairing road damage caused by trucks. Now Joyce is re-jigging RUC, and has even admitted that the permits for the 53T trucks won't cost anywhere near as much as it will cost to repair the road damage they do.
All the benefit accrues to the RCF. The general public are worse off, to the tune of increased spending on roads from the general fund that then can't be spent elsewhere, and to the tune of all the work not being funded for rail and coastal shipping development that could otherwise take millions of tonnes of freight off the roads except for final delivery, but those millions of tonnes of freight keep going by road and thus keep the members of the RCF happy. That's a whole hell of a lot of money, and their contributions to the National warchest are doubtless correspondingly large.
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