Southerly: The Problem With Religion
172 Responses
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Incidentally, I've read the Bible a couple of times, and have never found any mention of Jesus transforming children into goats, so I suppose it was invented by my grandfather purely in order to enrage proselytizers.
Wonderful but rather unnecessary when there's perfectly bizarre stories already included in said book. Like Jesus famously cursing a fig tree (to death) for its failure to produce fruit out-of-season.
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Jesus famously cursing a fig tree (to death)..
A clear case of provocation. That fig tree was totally asking for it.
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As explained to me, by a drunk Marxist, the key to having a successful religion is to have a really big book filled with contradictory information. Then religious leaders sell all subjective truth in religion by reading the bits that appeal to their customers.
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I should mention at this point that I very much dislike people being rude to religious believers -- because it makes me feel compelled to be polite by way of balance.
Balance? How do you know the scales are tipped in such a way that you must be polite? Or are you compensating for your grandfather?
Anyway very British of you, tho' some of those clever British atheists have come up with a word to describe you. Accommodationist.
Maybe you could open a hotel.Of course, it's not very nice to poke fun at sincerely-held religious beliefs,
So if a person sincerely believes inoculation causes mental problems in kids? Dont poke fun?
What is important here? Is it the sincerely held, or religious part?
Sorry this is just an personal unexamined opinion. But it is a blog.
Have a nice day. -
Incidentally, I've read the Bible a couple of times, and have never found any mention of Jesus transforming children into goats, so I suppose it was invented by my grandfather purely in order to enrage proselytizers.
He possibly adapted that from Pinocchio, which is understandable, Pinocchio being a thin knock-off of Jesus, right down to having holes in his hands and feet.
Also, you don't have to be a believer to deliver meals on wheels.
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A trinity of unrelated thoughts:
I rather like Christians. However I've only ever met a very few of them.
In my singing group, I'm am the one who does the most to help the person with disabilities whose presence in the group is disruptive and difficult. I am the godless atheist; all the rest profess some version of Christianity.
Miss Six the Younger: "But Jesus did exist, didn't he?"
Miss Six the Elder: "Oh, don't worry about that. God did exist, but he's dead now." -
My wife was once approached by a couple of Mormon missionaries. "Excuse me, sir..." one began. She cut him off with "Mate, I'm a girl, and I don't want to hear about your dumb-ass religion!". The other missionary burst out laughing and they left her alone.
Personally, I don't have a problem with being rude to door-to-door salespeople of any stripe (religion, power companies, etc). They're being rude by imposing themselves on you to try to sell something, so I don't have a problem with being rude back.
But I do agree with your closing points. Underneath all the pontificating blowhards and retrospective justifications, there's a lot of people just quietly getting on with trying to be good people. This isn't unique to religion, by any stretch, and in some cases their version of "good" radically differs from my own, but fair play: at least they're trying.
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The gospel which your Grandfather refers to is probably either the 'Infancy gospel of Thomas, or the Syriac Infancy gospel.
Neither of these is canonical in the sense that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are. The Church decided to quietly drop a certain number of gospels back in the reign of King James 1 when they were coming up with what we might refer to as The Most Ultimate Official Bible EVAR.
EDIT: text of the Arabic Infancy Gospel here.
On another day the Lord Jesus went out into the road, and saw the boys that had come together to play, and followed them; but the boys hid themselves from Him. The Lord Jesus, therefore, having come to the door of a certain house, and seen some women standing there, asked them where the boys had gone; and when they answered that there was no one there, He said again: Who are these whom you see in the furnace?' They replied that they were kids of three years old. And the Lord Jesus cried out, and said: Come out hither, O kids, to your Shepherd. Then the boys, in the form of kids, came out, and began to dance round Him; and the women, seeing this, were very much astonished, and were seized with trembling, and speedily, supplicated and adored the Lord Jesus, saying: O our Lord Jesus, son of Mary, Thou art of a truth that good Shepherd of Israel; have mercy on Thy handmaidens who stand before Thee, and who have never doubted: for Thou hast come, O our Lord, to heal, and not to destroy. And when the Lord Jesus answered that the sons of Israel were like the Ethiopians among the nations, the women said: Thou, O Lord, knowest all things, nor is anything hid from Thee; now, indeed, we beseech Thee, and ask Thee of Thy affection to restore these boys Thy servants to their former condition. The Lord Jesus therefore said: Come, boys, let us go and play. And immediately, while these women were standing by, the kids were changed into boys.
It seems to me that possibly the reason the church decided to drop these gospels is because they don't exactly show Our Lord Jeebus in the best of lights. In fact, I'd go as far as to say he comes across as an unmitigated little shit.
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Andin wrote:
Balance? How do you know the scales are tipped in such a way that you must be polite?
Dude, I think I explained this by my words later in that same paragraph:
"I do not greet them with icy rejection... because I know they've had icy rejection from every other house in the street, and I feel terribly, terribly sorry for them."
Andin wrote:
[Quoting David Haywood]
> Of course, it's not very nice to poke fun at
> sincerely-held religious beliefsSo if a person sincerely believes inoculation causes mental problems in kids? Dont poke fun?
Possibly you have to consider these words in the context of a piece in which I've spent the entire time poking fun at sincerely-held religious beliefs.
Accommodationist.
If by 'accommodationist' you mean letting people do and believe what they want (so long as it doesn't do harm to others), and pointing out (despite the depressing headlines and general silliness of religion) that many religious people are also good people -- then, y'know, call me a hotelier.
But nice work on remembering that second 'm' in 'accommodationist', dude -- it is so frequently forgotten.
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But then I remember the legions of genuine believers who unassumingly devote themselves to helping other people. As in other aspects of life, it's the quiet ones that are so easily overlooked. The volunteers who deliver meals-on-wheels, the kind-hearted people who give hospitality to strangers in need, those who donate their time to collect for charity-clothing organizations, who visit the sick in hospital, and the unfashionable and un-thanked people of many faiths who bring comfort to prisoners.
But .. but .. there are also legions of non-religious people who do these things too, for non-religious reasons. Like, here in Wellington, the army of volunteers at the Karori sanctuary; hospital volunteers like my Mum; people who help with refugee resettlement and English teaching; people who volunteer at school; Coast Care and Stream Care groups ..
But in fairness I should add that our school recently had a major working bee organised by a religious group, almost all of whom had no connection with the school. It was a huge success - worked for us, worked for them.
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I've always thought that the problem with religion (and especially Christianity) is that it's so very loud
I'm as godless as they come but I must say I do miss church bells.
Thus when the Mormons knock on my door while I'm watching Top Gear
Wow, they really are trying to save you! From a twat rather than Satan, admittedly, but that's some good saving.
EDIT: text of the Arabic Infancy Gospel here.
The scene is included in Dario Fo's show about the apocrypha. Brilliant stuff.
I am the godless atheist; all the rest profess some version of Christianity.
I recently discovered that in Saint Petersburg there used to be (maybe still is, I'm not sure) a Museum of the history of religion and atheism.
One thing that really struck me coming to New Zealand was religions advertising themselves. Catholicism has the saturation factor back home, so you don't get the billboard-style stuff you get here. I snapped this in New Plymouth last week, part of a large and growing collection.
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It seems to me that possibly the reason the church decided to drop these gospels is because they don't exactly show Our Lord Jeebus in the best of lights. In fact, I'd go as far as to say he comes across as an unmitigated little shit.
In fairness, he did turn them back into children again. Being a goat for a few minutes was probably the highlight of their day. But it does make His Worship Lord Jebus appear a little like "a conjurer of cheap tricks", which not even a self-respecting wizard will countenance.
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Rich Lock wrote:
The gospel which your Grandfather refers to is probably either the 'Infancy gospel of Thomas, or the Syriac Infancy gospel.
Oh, how I have misjudged my grandfather!
But wow, no wonder they decides to leave the 'Infancy gospel of Thomas' out of the official version. Killing a couple of other children and making the neighbours go blind is a pretty bad marketing move for the concept of Jesus as a nice guy. It'd make a good horror movie, though.
And maximum respect for your Googling skills, matey. I tried to find any reference to the goats trick when I was writing the piece -- and had no luck.
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this cartoon showed up on the ODT's editorial page yesterday ..... I expect letters to the editor ....
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The "official" version is all about making Jesus (and by extension, God, because they're, like, one and the same, y'know?) nice and approachable as opposed to the Old Testament God who was just the sort who would turn small boys in to goats just for a giggle. When you think about it, the Old Testament God really is a bit of a dickhead - thou shalt this and thou shalt not the other, and don't bother looking back at your city I just destroyed because I could and oh, those plagues? Have fun with them too.
I used to buttonhole religious door knockers and involve them in theological arguments (being the son of a reasonably liberal Presbyterian minister has its advantages every now and again) - but the fun's sort of gone out that, it's too easy. I just get annoyed by the ones that use their kids to knock on the door in the hopes you won't swear at them in front of the littlies.
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On another day the Lord Jesus went out into the road, and saw the boys that had come together to play, and followed them; but the boys hid themselves from Him. The Lord Jesus, therefore, having come to the door of a certain house, and seen some women standing there, asked them where the boys had gone
I haven't read much of the bible at all. How many sections make Jesus look like a Catholic priest trolling for nookie?
But .. but .. there are also legions of non-religious people who do these things too, for non-religious reasons.
Like David, I'm entirely happy with the 90% or so people who are religious and just getting on with being good people. If they get there via believing in god, as long as that belief doesn't cause harm in other areas, that's great.
For the non-religious, who get there via some other moral system, that's also great.
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Am I the only one who finds Richard Dawkins and the other "atheism uber alles" usual suspects to be at least as objectionable as overtly in-your-face religious types? What's the difference between his "There is only one truth, and that's my truth" and that of organised religions?
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Some quick replies before I am conscripted into helping my son with his excavations in the garden...
Deborah wrote:
I rather like Christians. However I've only ever met a very few of them.
Oh, touché.
Joe Wylie wrote:
Pinocchio being a thin knock-off of Jesus, right down to having holes in his hands and feet.
A very perceptive observation... could this be one for the copyright thread?
Kyle Matthews wrote:
I haven't read much of the bible at all. How many sections make Jesus look like a Catholic priest trolling for nookie?
I can set your mind at ease on that one. It only looks bad because the excerpt doesn't mention that Jesus was just a wee lad himself at that time. Phew.
giovanni tiso wrote:
[quoting David Haywood:]
> Thus when the Mormons knock on my door
> while I'm watching Top GearWow, they really are trying to save you! From a twat rather than Satan, admittedly, but that's some good saving.
I think Jeremy Clarkson is a world-class fuckwit, and yet still I am compelled to watch. I can offer no excuse. Perhaps this is why I have come to see the good in others, despite their strange beliefs. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, and all that.
Relating to your observations about coming to NZ. One of my colleagues had some interesting comments about coming here from (Catholic) Bavaria. To paraphrase: there I was boringly ordinary; here I am special. Nice to be able to experience that perspective.
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It's not religion per se that gets my goat (topical, eh?) but organised religion. That's where the problems arise.
I feel that religious conviction should come from within, rather than being impsed from without.
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Am I the only one who finds Richard Dawkins and the other "atheism uber alles" usual suspects to be at least as objectionable as overtly in-your-face religious types? What's the difference between his "There is only one truth, and that's my truth" and that of organised religions?
<glib>Falsifiability.</glib>
But no, you're not the only one - this atheist too. I think they are too ready to attribute various ills to religion, which are really just consequences of human nature.
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I rather like Christians. However I've only ever met a very few of them.
You have a field guide?
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I haven't read much of the bible at all. How many sections make Jesus look like a Catholic priest trolling for nookie?
Celibacy. Ur doin it wrong.
I think Jeremy Clarkson is a world-class fuckwit, and yet still I am compelled to watch.
Ditto. Even as I suspect we are sitting on a motorbike by a shark tank, I love Top Gear. Of course, I partially watch it because Richard is so lickably gorgeous. Your excuse is probably different. Cars or something.
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I think Jeremy Clarkson is a world-class fuckwit, and yet still I am compelled to watch. I can offer no excuse.
My wife blames the flashy editing. She says she can't turn her eyes away from it.
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The gospel which your Grandfather refers to is probably either the 'Infancy gospel of Thomas, or the Syriac Infancy gospel.
A day on which I learn something is a good day. Even better when it's as wiggy as that.
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Impressed with the goat-story-finding. I was was assuming it was part of the reasonably various body of extra-biblical folklore.
I recall reading a story about Jesus walking up rainbows in front of the other kids, and when he let them try he dropped them. And when their parents complained he took away their tongues. Eventually someone got Mary to come and sort it out.
The editor of the folklore compendium in question felt this relfected a popular idea of superheor types who aren't forces for good or for evil so much as just forces.
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