Hard News: The flagging referendum
165 Responses
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Sacha, in reply to
From my understanding of flag etiquette, the convention is that the conquering flag flies over the conquered flag.
Interesting to hear how the voting paper ended up as it did then.
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
From my understanding of flag etiquette, the convention is that the conquering flag flies over the conquered flag.
Interesting to hear how the voting paper ended up as it did then.
Given all the other psychological tricks that were apparently played in the guff that came with the ballot papers, I imagine it was a deliberate choice to try and eke out a few extra "yes" votes.
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nzlemming, in reply to
Hard to tell whether that's St. Richie or Brian Tamaki...
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Alfie, in reply to
Given all the other psychological tricks that were apparently played in the guff that came with the ballot papers...
Such as the Hindi translation which adds an extra 'new' to the instructions -- "tick the flag you want to be the new New Zealand flag".
Designed to confuse 100,000 voters? Or just a piss-poor translation of an extremely simple sentence?
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Emma Hart, in reply to
Such as the Hindi translation which adds an extra ‘new’ to the instructions – “tick the flag you want to be the new New Zealand flag”.
You might want to hold on and see if that's actually true first.
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I note that the Coat-of-arms (including the soon to be too feminine crown - according to Matthew Poole) is used prominently on the super expensive new MBIE sign in Stout Street:
The Government's business super ministry has admitted its controversial sign outside its headquarters cost almost $70,000, about 50 per cent more than it previously claimed.
In response to an Official Information Act request on Friday, the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) said that the sign outside its Stout Street headquarters cost $43,490.
But during Question Time in Parliament on Wednesday, Economic Development Minister Steven Joyce, seen as the architect of MBIE, admitted that the figure applied only to the supply and installation of the sign....plus I guess further updating should the flag/coat-of-arms change...
The GCSB and SIS both use the coat of arms in their logos in everyday use
http://www.gcsb.govt.nz/working-for-us/current-vacancies/
and
http://www.nzsis.govt.nz/
and the Government's overarching logo
https://www.govt.nz/organisations/If the flag changes and/or the coat of arms needs upgrading for whatever reason, I don't share Mr Poole's nonchalance that that won't have a large implementation cost - web sites alone will mount up at the current consultant rate I read about elsewhere on PAS...
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Alfie, in reply to
You might want to hold on and see if that’s actually true first.
I guess for every statement that's ever made, "somebody on the internet" will argue the opposite position Emma. In this case you're quoting a "friend" of somebody on Twitter.
You'd expect a major news organisation like the Herald to have done a simple fact check before running the story, surely? And if Winnie was wrong, wouldn't the government be running denial stories by now?
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nzlemming, in reply to
You'd expect a major news organisation like the Herald to have done a simple fact check before running the story, surely?
Is this a serious question?
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Alfie, in reply to
Is this a serious question?
Of course it is. While sub-editing is becoming a lost art on both the Herald and Stuff, Isaac Davison is an experienced journo and it would would have taken less than five minutes for him to verify the facts before putting his name to this story.
In the context of a discussion about possible trickery on the referendum papers, and with no rebuttal from the government some 24 hours later, I'd place more credibility on Davison than somebody's anonymous mate on Twitter. At this stage.
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Emma Hart, in reply to
I guess for every statement that’s ever made, “somebody on the internet” will argue the opposite position Emma. In this case you’re quoting a “friend” of somebody on Twitter.
"Someone on the internet" is Phil Lyth, who works for the Electoral Commission. His "friend" is the person who did the translating for the Electoral Commission. But what would they know, right?
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Sacha, in reply to
You'd expect a major news organisation like the Herald to have done a simple fact check before running the story, surely?
ah the good old days
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linger, in reply to
ah the good old days
Fact-checking in t'news? Luuuuxury.
But you try telling folk today, and they won't believe you.
Especially if you tell them in a news report. -
Alfie, in reply to
“Someone on the internet” is Phil Lyth, who works for the Electoral Commission.
You presumed that the rest of us somehow instinctively knew that. How exactly?
His “friend” is the person who did the translating for the Electoral Commission.
Again, that's impossible to guess from the original tweet. So the person responsible for the error, if indeed there is one, defends his position. Hardly unexpected then.
With still no denial from the government, Winston Peters is now calling for all votes from Hindi-speaking people to be nullified.
While Winnie may be grandstanding, this is surely a simple issue to resolve. It only takes a Hindi speaker with knowledge of the Hindi words for 'New Zealand', 'flag' and 'new'. Is it really that complicated?
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Winnie may be grandstanding
Hardly unexpected, then!
If there is an error in translation, that is extremely regrettable; but calling for vote nullification is a wild overreaction, not least because most Hindi speakers registered to vote in New Zealand are able to read English well enough to check the intended meaning for themselves. But more importantly, a government stuffup should never lead to disenfranchisement. -
nzlemming, in reply to
You presumed that the rest of us somehow instinctively knew that. How exactly?
FFS Phil Lyth often comments here. Really, shouldn't you have done some fact checking?
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Alfie, in reply to
Really, shouldn’t you have done some fact checking?
Sorry but I've never seen any of his posts here and the name wasn't familiar. His Twitter profile refers to a site which I checked, but there's no website there. A reference in the original post ("Phil... who works for the Electoral Commission") would have been extremely helpful in this case. We don't all move in the same circles.
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Matthew Poole, in reply to
If the flag changes and/or the coat of arms needs upgrading for whatever reason, I don’t share Mr Poole’s nonchalance that that won’t have a large implementation cost – web sites alone will mount up at the current consultant rate I read about elsewhere on PAS
At what point did I say the costs of revising the coat of arms would not potentially be significant, Ian? I said the costs of changing the flag are being hugely overblown by people who seem to think the national flag is used as logo and livery hither and yon within the public service, and not a single person has presented a shred of evidence to the contrary.
I also said that the coat of arms stands alone in its validity whether or not the flag within is representative of the national flag laid down by statute. My point about the crown is that it was added after Liz became the queen, and since the immediate heirs are all male it is unlikely that they will wear that crown at their coronations; thus, given the rationale for its inclusion, at the time one of them takes over it would be logical for the coat of arms to be revised. That will apply with or without a change to the flag.
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Emma Hart, in reply to
You presumed that the rest of us somehow instinctively knew that. How exactly?
Even if I'd dug the hole all sneaky and a-purpose, which I didn't, nobody forced you to jump in it.
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Alfie, in reply to
Even if I’d dug the hole all sneaky and a-purpose, which I didn’t, nobody forced you to jump in it.
Thanks for your constructive comment Emma. I'm not sure that cheap point scoring adds much to the conversation, but whatever...
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Wolverine rips into flag...
Now they are getting desperate in the 'Change for Change's Sake' camp:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/celebrities/77776026/hugh-jackman-says-its-time-to-get-rid-of-the-union-jack-on-our-flag
He doesn't endorse our alternate flag design just change and that's enough apparently.During an interview with ZM radio, the Wolverine star said he was in favour of both New Zealand and Australia changing their flags.
"I think the days of having the Union Jack on our flag, we've moved on from that point. No offence, it's all great, thank you very much, time to move on," he said.
Jackman joins a long list of local celebrities vying for a change of the flag, which includes the likes of Dan Carter, Maria Tutaia, Chrystal Chenery, Mike Hosking and Oscar Kightley along with ex-Prime Ministers Jim Bolger and Dame Jenny Shipley.A: that's not a 'long ' list
B: those are a pretty anaemic and sad bunch of 'celebrities'
C: The comments are pretty funny...this last paragraph is a very loose description of what is actually happening:
Voting is currently open for Kiwis to choose whether they want to change the flag, with voting due to close on March 24.
Strictly speaking we are not voting whether to change it, we are voting for which will be the the flag we use.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
Agreed. I was determined to participate in good faith in the first round of the referendum and to make a positive choice in doing so.
But … it could be said that the Lockwoods are the kind of thing the guy whose favourite movie is Johnny English and favourite music is “easy listening music” would choose to champion.
If there’s a tribal element to my response, it’s not really political, but cultural. That flag seems to perfectly embody the mediocrity of recent years. The idea of enshrining that into an enduring symbol gives me the screaming shits.
This, so much. I’m starting to draw comparisons with Nickelback. And possibly even the Ford Edsel in the 1950s and New Coke in the 1980s.
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Rich Lock, in reply to
Wolverine rips into flag...
To be fair, the 'X-men' flag is pretty cool....
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
To be fair, the ‘X-men’ flag is pretty cool….
But it looks like a mutation of a 'hood ornament'...
;- ) -
izogi, in reply to
B: those are a pretty anaemic and sad bunch of 'celebrities'
That's not a fair comment until you've compared it against the certaified Fairfax list of celebrities against change.
Lorde's mum Sonya Yelich-O'Connor, choreographer Parris Goebel, rower and politician Rob Hamill, actor Sam Neill, socialite Sally Ridge, and model Colin Mathura-Jeffree are amongst those against change.
Nah, i think any list with Dan Carter, Richie McCaw, Jim Bolger and Wolverine totally beats out the against-crowd. Beach towel it is!
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