Hard News: Deriving satisfaction from the misfortune of others
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Andy - I just managed to make my first link and as a non techie the steam was coming out my ears by the end. Here's an explanation- I'm sure the experts do it better.
And also, if it's a short link, you can just paste it in and it automatically becomes live.
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OK, perhaps I was inspecific. They were originally against it, then for it, then against it again. Whereas some religions have never been against it.
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Heh. I'll remember you to my children when they don't get any Christmas presents because Daddy didn't sell enough ad impressions this year ....
Damn that open source movement and their Christmas wrecking capabilities!
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Some Old Testament Advice on Slavery
I've mentioned before I once saw, in a certain recent pamphlet, some distressing comments from proverbs on how you need to hit you slaves to make them learn things. Cited, I might add, in support of hitting children.
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Does anyone know what "Judeo-Christian values" are?
Well - you could ask Gordon himself...
Gordo's up with the YouTube generation :-)
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Slavery was simply part of the economic structure of the time - it wasn't seen as a huge moral issue. And it has been a very widespread social practice over thousands of years. From China to the Aztecs, to Maori to the Black African kingdoms. In fact Mauritania is one of the most slave-ridden societies left.
Now of course we can feel virtuous about it, but we still replicate the conditions of servitude, with even fewer obligations to slaves.
And no, I'm not advocating a return to it ;-)
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Damn that open source movement and their Christmas wrecking capabilities!
Damn you pretty Nelson types...It's free as in anti-slavery not as in beer.
I too have to pay for Xmas.
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http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0709/S00294.htm
Richard Lewis says he so is a co-leader.
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Well - you could ask Gordon himself...
"Western Values" (erm Greek)
Democracy (erm, Greek)
10 Commandments - Ok, the Judeo bit, tick, and it sounds like according to Gordon NZ is bang on with these ones. Waiting to hear from
The Chinese Communists believe Christianity is at the heart of Western success (no referece BTW) Seems that the Chinese are unable to love each other like we can 'cause they ain't Christian. Waiting to hear from Tze Ming Mok on this one.
So, love, respect, civil liberties, freedom, all brought about be Christian values. I wish the guy would read some history.
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Why do you think Christians were originaly against slavery?
Because huge numbers of them were slaves, or became slaves.
Some Old Testament Advice on Slavery
Nice. I don't see much of the word of Jesus approving of it there, although Luke says that he made some sort of point about how punishment should be lighter if you didn't know it was wrong. Which seems fair enough to me.
But OK all, I'm prepared to accept that the evidence of Christianity being less accepting of slaves is kind of weak. I forgot just how many places were Christian.
It wasn't my point though, which was more that the values we tend to automatically accept come mostly from the society we are raised in. Our current society abhors slavery and has a highly Judeo-Christian background. Perhaps this is only a coincidence, and we abhor slavery for reasons which don't find their roots in our deep seated moral feelings, which in turn have their roots in morals that were drilled in by churches, until historically very recently.
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Did you spot the first three letters of the YouTube content ID in the link Graeme posted.... ?
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Hmmm.... so many themes:
On the Christianity and slavery bit, Christ doesn't say peep against slavery either.
The 'Render Unto Caesar comment' bit comes in the context of people trying to get him to get into politics, essentially. He doesn't buy it. Smart guy.
As for Copeland being part of some plot...can't see it. I've spoken to him often enough, over the years, to get a reasonable handle on the guy's modus operandi.
He's just not very good at this stuff, but he's got a rather high opinion of his abilities. OK, most MPs do, but the gap between reality and their own perception is wider in some cases than others.
The last 48 hours have been entirely in character, I'm afraid.
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Actually, I can inform readers that the Destiny releases actually came in IN ALL CAPS. The Scoop operative in question felt the best readability-to-time-fixing ratio was to title case the whole thing.
I feel a bit guilty about it, but this bothers me only slightly less than their self important morality mongering. Jesus would not use all caps. Unless perhaps he was yelling at the established religious leaders for becoming all about the benjamins. But not for press releases.
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It wasn't my point though, which was more that the values we tend to automatically accept come mostly from the society we are raised in. Our current society abhors slavery and has a highly Judeo-Christian background.
Hmm, I don't think it quite works that way. Civil rights for minorities have generally been embraced as our society gets more secular.
Re: slavery. Generally the christians were pretty slow to join the fight for emancipation, and some orthodox denominations actually fought pretty hard to keep the status quo. The one church that began the abolitionist movements in the UK and America was the Quakers.
That said, I don't think it's strictly because they are/were specifically pro-slavery so much as the fundy denominations tend to confuse cultural conditioning with absolute truth, thus any effort to change that conditioning must be evil. The term "social engineering" as backlash against progressive policy is indicative of this. Give them another 150 years and they'll all be celebrating the emancipation of homosexuals.
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What a lovely long thread to read through on a Thursday evening when it's the end of term, as well. And being that it's the end of term, my intelligent speech quotient is five words. Tamaki Is A Scary F*****
This seemed to be the case with the recent argument about the burial of the bloke from Christchurch. His North Island whanau have adopted a view of the world that was valid when there was nothing to test it against but I don't understand how it can be defended these days with such vehemence. You might say you prefer the traditional ways for a host of reasons but how can you say in 2007 it is now the only way to proceed?
The wahine ataahua that I do my mahi with every day think that the bloke who died needed to tell his family early on that the family of his birth were very likely to take his tinana back to their turangawaewae. And then all of this hooha would have been avoided. I would tautoko this point of view.
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a scary f*? no no no - make that A SCARY F*****
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oh <sheepish> so sorry, just realised
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Hmm, I don't think it quite works that way. Civil rights for minorities have generally been embraced as our society gets more secular.
Yup, but have a guess which societies moved towards secularism first?
Perhaps that was a function of how fuxored Christianity was, or perhaps it was a function of how fuxored it wasn't. Of course the Churches resisted the move, but the society itself, steeped in Christian morality, was what moved to the Age of Reason etc. And much of that is still with us.
I'm not convinced about this point, but I don't think it can be clearly discarded either.
The main alternative to my thinking is that Christian society had such a strong taste for violence that their arms race led to extremely rapid technological advances, and that in turn led to an alternative faith, that of science, by necessity. But once you embrace science, you've opened a can of whooparse on religion, since science provides such worldly benefits that it's hard to deny its core must be pretty strong.
This is not to say that a violent religion is required to foster science, but maybe it helped a lot. Wars have always been times of rapid technological expansion, and the almost perpetual war in Europe until the end of WW2 put them at the forefront of science in some areas, and gave them the guns to steal any other areas. So pretty soon they had all the guns and all the science.
The third thesis is that Christianity is not particularly violent or nice, just lucky. Depending on what you consider luck.
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I cant let this pass
Scotland produces the world's best in two fields...
Rugby isn't one of themeither is whiskey
Slainte
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Damn you pretty Nelson types...It's free as in anti-slavery not as in beer.
I too have to pay for Xmas.
Oh I'm right with you really. Firefox with my favourite extensions switched off is like dreaming you're Dan Carter then waking up to find you're really Peter Dunne.
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The wahine ataahua that I do my mahi with every day think that the bloke who died needed to tell his family early on that the family of his birth were very likely to take his tinana back to their turangawaewae. And then all of this hooha would have been avoided.
Sorry? I've had some experience of such 'hooha' (as you put it), and I respectfully suggest the only way it would have been 'avoided' was if Denise Clarke had knocked back a fistful of No-Doze and sat by her partner's coffin with a softball bat until he was buried where he wanted to be.
Hey, perhaps Clarke was a hopelessly naive bitch for thinking her partner's wishes were actually worth spit. But I actually find it pretty offensive that the blame for a distressing and traumatic situation to her and her children is being put on her.
Not cool, Jackie. Oh, and before I'm called a racist don't think the same b.s. doesn't go down with the honkies. One of the most horrible grieving processes I've ever been through is when a friend died of cancer, and the family who didn't want a damn thing to do with the camp queen when he was alive had a lot to say about the funeral arrangements. And needless to say, the partner of twenty-five years and the people who'd actually been part of his life were not welcome.
Legal - yes. (And thankfully, we're legally moved on a little since then.) But can you even begin to understand what a violation that petty and vindictive power trip (almost literally) over an open coffin was?
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I'm not blaming her at all, Craig, nor her children. I'm blaming him for not informing her at some stage in the twenty odd years they were together that this eventuality may occur. I was being flippant - sorry if any offence was taken. And yes it is a very similar situation to not so long in the distant past when a gay man was ill, and his long term partner had no rights. Can we at least concur that Tamaki is a scary so and so?
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Another response to Gordo's youtube revelations on Judeo-Christian values. He gives the 10 Commandments plenty of air-time, without of course acknowledging there is no single, agreed-upon set of 10 Commandments.
And as has been noted by many commentators, irrespective of whichever set one happens to be considering, the moral value of the Commandments as a tool for organizing civil society and/or criminal law is very dubious.
Taking the Catholic version of the Commandments (which I assume Gordo considers superior to the others), the first three are instructions to believers (including the wonderful admission re: being a "jealous god"), with no wider societal relevance that I can think of.
The fourth is very strict about not working on the Sabbath, or allowing one's "male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey" to work for that matter. I look forward to Gordo working alongside the National Party to close St Lukes mall on a Sunday.
Commandments 5-10 are at least moral instructions, with some logic to them, but again, does Gordo propose making it compulsory (as opposed to merely desirable under good circumstances) to honour one's parents (#5)? I can't see how that's the state's business.
Likely, the matter of coveting the neighbour's wife (#10) is a matter for private conscience, of no proper concern to the state or society more widely.
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I'm not blaming her at all, Craig, nor her children. I'm blaming him for not informing her at some stage in the twenty odd years they were together that this eventuality may occur.
Jackie, well I'd like to apologise too - it was really unfair to say you were somehow being callous or insensitive to Denise Clarke or her children, and am sure we can both agree it's a damn horrible situation we wouldn't wish on anyone. Seriously, how many of us sit down and plan out our funerals - let alone a watchlist of the folks you've had little to do with for years but might turn up with a hired van to jack your corpse? I did in the wake of a cancer scare a few years back (the first part anyway), and that was not a very comfortable conversation, to put it mildly.
I don't want to put into the public domain some things I've heard through the flaxroots, but there's a lot more going on than the 'culture clash' narrative that's been in the media. I'm sure we've all seen funerals where a lot of bad blood and emotional toxic waste gets vented, but this is really, really extreme.
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I'm blaming him for not informing her at some stage in the twenty odd years they were together that this eventuality may occur.
Surely you didn't mean to write that Jackie?
Can we at least concur that Tamaki is a scary so and so?
Certainly not. He is a figure of huge bombastic fun. Long may he be around to amuse us.
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