Field Theory: One in a billion
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a steamy, homoerotic... um... description of a team. Set among rippling chests, powerful thighs and firm buns, young men cavort in the locker room...
...sounds not unlike murray mexted's normal rugby commentary:)
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Tracy
sorry, have they found those "gay genes", then? Let alone rugby-player genes
I really need a sarcasm tag. My point was that after we find those genes (we probably, but not certainly, will find genes associated with both traits) then it should be possible to prove Gayness does not associate with Rugbyness. A completely pointless study of course. Sadly such a paper would probably make it into Nature - sigh.
There really is pretty good evidence that some component of homsexuality is genetic. The genes haven't been identified yet but that is just a matter of time. As for genes associated with athletic ability there already have been several identified but it ain't simple :).
Until then the response to claims that people are "sure" there are no gay ABs should be ... Bollocks. The claim may turn out to be true but they have no legitimate reason to be "sure".
On the identifying-as-gay theme. I got to go to Egypt in '08 where men walk around hand-in-hand a lot. Which sadly I found odd, saying more about me than them. It turns out though, according to the guide books, that in Egypt some men will have sex with men but still remain 100% heterosexual, providing they are the "donor". Which goes to show that it is a lot more complicated than many people would like it to be.
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3410,
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I don't think that that indicates a sexual relationship, in Arab countries,...
Oh no I didn't mean to suggest it did. No more than girls walking hand in hand in NZ suggests sexual relationship. It did jar for me, which is what I found sad, that my own culture is so repressed that men touching is jarring.
BTW that first picture is very disturbing too, the second is photoshopped.
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3410,
the second is photoshopped.
D'oh!
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that my own culture is so repressed that men touching is jarring.
Not giving hugs to Kiwi male friends is something I had to learn in an awful hurry when I got here. I just couldn't stand the discomfort and the mock-homophobic jokes used to disguise the discomfort. Christ.
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Not giving hugs to Kiwi male friends is something I had to learn in an awful hurry when I got here.
Bart <---- can be hugged and will not assume sexual motivation
Bart <---- likes giving hugs, also without sexual motivation
hmmm maybe a T-shirt is needed
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According to QI (and Stephen Fry would never lie to you), it was the tiral of Oscar Wilde that put an end to friendly physical contact between men in Western/British society. Before that it was normal for men to walk arm-in-arm etc.
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i have trouble huggin teh ladeez let alone teh menz...
...even so far as to avoid shaking hands and as for hongi
i'm wayyyy too tapu for that:)
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and as for hongi
Which for me is a real problem, another cultural disjunction.
I know intellectually that shaking hands transfers as many bacteria/virus particles as rubbing noses but for some reason the idea of rubbing my (icky yucky) nose against another person's nose ... shudder.
Yet a kiss on the check is OK? Yes I know it's not rational but I can't help it.
When you get down to it, it's kind of alarming how many cultural biases lurk in my behaviour.
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* To work this out properly you can't simply multiply 0.015 by 30, but should multiply the probability that any given player is straight 30 times, or
p(no gay players) = .985^30
p(at least one gay player) =1-p(no gay players) ~ 0.36Dude, where were you when I was asking for stats help on Twitter (I did pure maths, no stats)
Doesn't your equation assume that they are selected from a general population and not from a particular group of rugby players? Same goes for the 15 All Blacks in history.
Also, 64% is still a good bet against. (I know I'm getting my percents and probabilities mixed).
Personally I think 1.5% is too high, based on survey bias. But we'll stick with it.
AND
After thinking and discussing with my statistically adept partner: 0.36 is the probability of there being a gay player on the team if they are selected at random form the general population. And no matter what you might think of Graham Henry I'm fairly sure he doesn't do that.
The same goes for the average 8.8 players per year who join the All Blacks (1,100 players over 125 years). There is a probability of 0.125 of one of them being a gay player only if they are selected at random from the general population.
Hayden, darling, maths did my head in at school. I plumped for the easy stats; I assume, like Jojo and her mates, that everyone is a fag until proven otherwise. Easy peasy.
I've heard stories about gay All Blacks, and have heard names, some which are plainly not true, some which plainly are (and boys? the existence of a wedding ring doesn't prove sexuality). There are gay All Blacks, just as there are gay athletes in all sorts of fields. And gays in all sorts of political parties. And in all sorts of mechanical engineering fields. In fact, anywhere and everywhere. Which only goes to prove that being a freaking fabulous hohohomosexual is mindnumbingly normal - we are everywhere.
It's the heterosexual's that are freakingly abnormal.
And hohohohomophobia? Clearly it's a major problem and a major cause of illness in our communities, but clearly, for some gay men, they are able to navigate or 'mitigate' it to a degree that enables them to become elite athletes. Witness Gareth Thomas. His desire to be an elite rugby player clearly outweighed any kind of hohohomophobia.
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And hohohohomophobia...
Are you trying to out Santa or something?
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Not giving hugs to Kiwi male friends is something I had to learn in an awful hurry when I got here. I just couldn't stand the discomfort and the mock-homophobic jokes used to disguise the discomfort. Christ.
Really? I hug male friends as appropriate. Last weekend, I even did that newish man-hug thing that starts out as a handshake and winds up as a sort of chest-bump, but it seems a bit complicated.
I'm surprised that with the All Blacks hugging each other on TV all the time, and (for younger men) E-fuelled friend-love having broken down the boundaries, that many men younger than 50 have that much of a hang-up about it.
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At various stages in my life and with various groups of people hugging has either been frequent and mandatory or completely taboo and I always find making the switch really confusing. I spend a lot of time doing that little dance where you shift your weight backwards and forwards trying to go in for a hug whist retaining the ability to back off without looking like you were trying anything.
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And hohohohomophobia...
Are you trying to out Santa or something?
I wish. For reasons I can't fathom it's a 'tic' I picked up in the late 80s when I was coming out. The use of the 'hohoho' indicates nervousness hence a gay using it is being ironic.
Where's the irony button?
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I took a break from the system and it's nice to see this thread kept going and largely got away from statistics.
I'm surprised that with the All Blacks hugging each other on TV all the time ... that many men younger than 50 have that much of a hang-up about it.
And of course sportsmen have for years slapped each other on the butt to say "good job", yet that hasn't caught on either. Side note: one of the funniest NFL film clips I've seen was a player getting a manly slap from a coach and replying with "Ow! That hurt!"
Hayden, darling
Christopher, darling, it's Hadyn :)
My point about the numbers was that I don't consider the All Blacks to be selected from the general population and so the chances of a player being gay were much much less than most might expect.
I'm curious about the hohohohomophobia tic though. My friends and I have a running joke about Heheheheheroin which was a quote from a "drugs are bad" education video we watched. You didn't see the same one did you?
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I even did that newish man-hug thing that starts out as a handshake and winds up as a sort of chest-bump, but it seems a bit complicated.
grasp thumbs in the classic soul brother grip, raise your interlocked hands to your chests as some sort of buffer. then pull each other close while crossing over slightly and let your opposing shoulders touch ,then pull away while holding each others gaze.
for extra emphasis, reach around with your spare arm and hug them at the same time. aint nuthin complicated bout it:)
i dont mind this form of greeting but i'd had to have not seen you for aaaaages before you qualify
otherwise we just bump knuckles or take a pound on it. anything to avoid pressing sweaty palm flesh together and squeezing the fuck out of it.
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My point about the numbers was that I don't consider the All Blacks to be selected from the general population and so the chances of a player being gay were much much less than most might expect.
Well, yes we see your point but we think you are extremely mistaken. However you arrived at associating effeminate behaviour with homosexuality and butch & homophobic behaviour with heterosexuality, you couldn't be more wrong in your assumption.
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Hadyn - apologies for mis-spelling your name!
Well I guess we'll have to leave numbers behind and errr bond - but in that manly way - over a beer and marvel at the wonderous rugby playing and not give a toss whether the man is straight, gay or something else entirely different. Which I think essentially is your point.
Of course I know SFA about rugby so I'll be oggling the legs... but I don't think I can do that for 80 mins without getting insanely bored.
I'm curious about the hohohohomophobia tic though. My friends and I have a running joke about Heheheheheroin which was a quote from a "drugs are bad" education video we watched. You didn't see the same one did you?
No. Though this tic stems from the late 80s so perhaps someone picked up the heheheheheroin and modified it - assuming that the 'drugs are bad' education video was a late 80s thing.
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However you arrived at associating effeminate behaviour with homosexuality and butch & homophobic behaviour with heterosexuality, you couldn't be more wrong in your assumption.
Nope. I did it by assuming that gay athletes might be put off by the outwardly homophobic sports world.
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Of course I know SFA about rugby so I'll be oggling the legs... but I don't think I can do that for 80 mins without getting insanely bored.
Just wait for the 3D footage :)
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grasp thumbs in the classic soul brother grip, raise your interlocked hands to your chests as some sort of buffer. then pull each other close while crossing over slightly and let your opposing shoulders touch ,then pull away while holding each others gaze.
for extra emphasis, reach around with your spare arm and hug them at the same time. aint nuthin complicated bout it:)
With my gay friends we often do the French 'kiss kiss' thing - shake hands, lean forward and kiss your friend on their left cheek, then pull back. For extra emphasis kiss the right cheek in quick succession.
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Nope. I did it by assuming that gay athletes might be put off by the outwardly homophobic sports world.
You mean gay as in out and proud, not as in closeted, yes? Then you'd be right... clearly there would be some incentive to stay way at the back of the closet. But if you think rugby players, firemen, cowboys or even the Village People themselves don't have sex with men because they look so masculine, well, we just thought you were confused.
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At various stages in my life and with various groups of people hugging has either been frequent and mandatory or completely taboo and I always find making the switch really confusing.
Caveat: this is by no means as fraught for women as it is for men. The only thing anyone's going to assume about my sexuality if I hug too many people is that I'm a desperate slag.
I do have enormous trouble, though, working out how to cope with people whom I know don't hug in what I'd normally consider to be a hugging situation. To say hello after a separation, or to say thank you, or I care. Because I'm not very good at saying these things verbally.
Russell, for instance, is A Hugger, so I expect a hug on greeting. David is not, so I stand there feeling really awkward.
In KAOS, hugging was pretty much 'any time you greet anyone', and it did take a while for me to break that habit. But even there, it wasn't as expected between males.
But if you think rugby players, firemen, cowboys or even the Village People themselves don't have sex with men because they look so masculine, well, we just thought you were confused.
Dyan, seriously? Where did Hadyn say anything remotely like that?
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my outlaws are all huggers, touchers, feelers, head scratchers, massagers and not too worried about gender either, more so when gathered for a drink up which they also often do to excess.
i tend to sift off and get irie by myself instead. i'm complicated like that:)
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